I don't think most people are saying that, to be fair?To say that Deck is going to damage Switch sales is like saying that PC is going to damage PS5 sales.
And, in handheld space, Nintendo never loses. This track record is one thing to consider too. An incumbent, with a lower price, exclusive content, and simpler games will be more treat for switch than a powerful beef PC game portable, bigger price, and with no exclusive software. One portable take all indie games away from the Nintendo software pipeline will damage more than a Valve portable, and track history of Valve does not help at all.I think the main disconnection here is that some people are treating SD as if it was an entire platform.
If Nintendo made a TV-only Switch with a pro controller and a PS4 Pro like graphic upgrade (and no exclusive games), I would also not think it would sell tens of millions. Because it's just another SKU within a platform which attended a lot of the demand for it.
It's the same thing for the Deck. The PC platform is on par with the Switch platform. Deck is just another PC sku, like the Lite is another Switch sku.
But the Lite had 1, and now 2, other skus to compete with, while the Deck has hundred of desktops and notebooks to compete with and, if the form factor gets enough traction, there will be more handheld competition beyond the currently outclassed small sellers like GPD and Aya Neo. And since tech evolve fast, it will take just a couple years for more powerful handhelds to appear.
And that's before accounting how far ahead Nintendo is in terms of being able to manufacture, distribute and market hardware on a global level, due to 30+ years of experience, business relationships and brand awareness.
And, in handheld space, Nintendo never loses. This track record is one thing to consider too. An incumbent, with a lower price, exclusive content, and simpler games will be more treat for switch than a powerful beef PC game portable, bigger price, and with no exclusive software. One portable take all indie games away from the Nintendo software pipeline will damage more than a Valve portable, and track history of Valve does not help at all.
Whoah, even coming from a fellow Pre-Orderer (Decker? Deckmate? Deck-kin?) lets not get ahead of ourselveseven though it's an altogether superior product,
So you forget history, you forget the up entry-level (100-150 dollars plus Steam Deck) against 300 dollars´ Switch. You forget good exclusivity, good exclusivities, not PC and Steam Deck multiplatform indies. A 50k game is ready and the big ones not working on Proton. The problem your analyzis is based on promises and potential not in fact. The entry-level for hybrid experience is more than $ 200,00 bucks for a similar hybrid experience. If you need a handheld experience is the same $ 200,00. What is the market for portable accessory, one PC second console, beyond the Valve hardcore fans? The Valve controller fails, that Valve console fails, why this will succeed and destroy Nintendo hybrid system? It´s blue strategy system? It´s a disruptive system? Does valve understands the portable market? Does valve understand the hybrid market? The switch has more than 3000 games now, 50k of games, all works for Steam Deck?PC has a hundred times more exclusives than Nintendo every year.
And again, we are in the 4th year of the Switch, the Deck doesn't compete with a brand new handheld. Most Nintendo Fans who wanted a Switch because of Nintendo Exclusives already got it.
99% of 3rd-party releases will release at the same time, or in most cases, first on Steam. And let's not mention that nearly all of Microsoft Exclusives and in the future nearly all of Sony Exclusives will also be on the Deck.
The Meme "would be great for Switch" started not because there is an abundance of games on the Switch. The meme exists because Switch owners want more quality 3rd-party games on the System.
The Deck has, what other competitors against Nintendo Handhelds could only dream off: A 50k Games ready library with customers already owning a big chunk of games.
Nintendo has to convince their playerbase into investing in a new library and hardware every 5 years or so, and it wasn't that successful in that regard. While the Deck can just exist and be another great thing about the Steam Platform.
Which game that you want to play on Steam Deck does currently not work?The switch has more than 3000 games now, 50k of games, all works for Steam Deck?
For the love of God, can we stop with this false narrative? There has never been a "Valve console". Valve never released a Steam Machine of their own and had very little to do with what these PCs actually were (basically nothing more than small form factor PCs).that Valve console fails
I'm not sure what this really even means. They don't have to understand "the market". The Deck is not reliant on being it's own separate ecosystem. It's a PC. It plays Steam games.Does valve understands the portable market? Does valve understand the hybrid market?
curiously, Van Gogh will be replaced next year with a similar APU. question will be, will Valve move to that or will they stick to Van Gogh
All of the highlighted are easier said than done, given that the Steam Deck (I don't recall if all or just the cheapest model) is sold at a loss. Actually the more they will sell, the higher the hit they will have to absorb. And no, I don't think that the more they sell, the cheaper it will become for them, not in the current climate nor at the current quantities, even if doubled or tripled.Is Valve positioning the Deck as always having the somewhat best-in class mobile APU (at that price point) and update it accordingly while keeping the same price structure or even introduce more expensive SKUs. Or are they gonna stick to current specs for years to come and really try to establish as portable gaming PC baseline for a console like period of +4 years, while trying to sell it for even cheaper down the line. Is smaller cheaper SteamDeck Lite for 299 something that could happen ? What will things look like when Valve introduced their SteamDeck equivalent of a homeconsole ?
Never implied it was easier just interested what there long-term plans look like. We already know that the supply and pricing situations isn't really gonna be able to change much in the first 18-24 months - the interesting part is what happens after that and what their goal for SteamDeck as a Plattform is.All of the highlighted are easier said than done, given that the Steam Deck (I don't recall if all or just the cheapest model) is sold at a loss. Actually the more they will sell, the higher the hit they will have to absorb. And no, I don't think that the more they sell, the cheaper it will become for them, not in the current climate nor at the current quantities, even if doubled or tripled.
Well, I see various possibilities -Never implied it was easier just interested what there long-term plans look like. We already know that the supply and pricing situations isn't really gonna be able to change much in the first 18-24 months - the interesting part is what happens after that and what their goal for SteamDeck as a Plattform is.
Even with the 400 base system being sold at loss, i have a hard time believing that they are gonna sell you the same for 400 bucks 2-3 years from now. So where do they go from there to expand their market ?
If Steam Deck sells well; it could help build interest from larger manufacturers like HP or Lenovo to help expand the segment.I'm not sure what other companies can do that hasn't already been done. the Steam Deck, from a hardware concept, isn't breaking new ground
are they even still making headsets? honest question as I don't follow VR newsIf Steam Deck sells well; it could help build interest from larger manufacturers like HP or Lenovo to help expand the segment.
Kind of like what Valve/HTC pulled off with the HTC Vive. Vive came out early 2016 and late 2017 saw Acer, HP, Lenovo and Samsung release PC compatible headsets.
Most of those companies released revisions of their headsets in late 2018. HP released the Reverb G2 end of last year and HTC released the Vive Pro 2 this year.are they even still making headsets? honest question as I don't follow VR news
I think it is also worth mentioning that it got another delay, now it's February 2022.Steam Deck image shrinks significantly, ships with RAM from different vendors
What was supposed to be already shipping has been delayed until February, and while Valve cites the silicon shortage as the cause, it looks like there may be a bit more to the story.www.neowin.net
More available space for storage and multiple memory vendors.
The delay was already announced a couple of weeks ago, so its not exactly news anymore.I think it is also worth mentioning that it got another delay, now it's February 2022.
Didnt expect the OS footprint to be this big to begin with +20gb would have been massive.Steam Deck image shrinks significantly, ships with RAM from different vendors
What was supposed to be already shipping has been delayed until February, and while Valve cites the silicon shortage as the cause, it looks like there may be a bit more to the story.www.neowin.net
More available space for storage and multiple memory vendors.
I totally missed this... Was this also mentioned on IB somewhere at the time?The delay was already announced a couple of weeks ago, so its not exactly news anymore.
Didnt expect the OS footprint to be this big to begin with +20gb would have been massive.
Seems like things might come in hot in February, lets hope they dont have to delay it again.
By your logic, it would sell even more than the PS5 and XSX.You keep stating that it's about sales talk, but then go back to defending the Switch on a hardware/feature level, repeating that somehow Steam Deck-fans are using the SoC alone for their "Steam Deck is better" claims, which couldn't be further from the truth. Your entire posting reads like it was written by 2 different people, to be quite honest, one person that indeed wants to have a level-headed debate about sales, but then another person that can't help but return to "but ACTUALLY Steam Deck is NOT better!!1". Like this:
That's just not true, Steam Deck-fans have brought up many points to say how the Steam Deck is better than the Switch, and graphics are only one of many. I myself brought up many of these points myself. I'm afraid it won't lead anywhere productive, because it was dismissed in the past already, but for sincerity's sake I'll list those points again:
- obviously, stronger hardware that plays all games on the market
- more comfortable to hold/better ergonomy as per hands-on reports
- about equal battery life
- barely more expensive
- optional dock for docked/undock-switching
- no detachble joycons, but supports pretty much any controller
- much bigger, much cheaper games library
- no Nintendo-games, but everything else, even Sony 1st-party games going forward
- customization features
- party-chat, messaging, Netflix, folders, etc, all the things people have been wishing for for Switch since 2017
- multimedia-capability aka it can be both for gaming, but also for productive work
- perfect emulation device
- extreme hybrid versatility: handheld play, docked play, laptop style play, 2nd screen play
- analog shoulder buttons
- additional input elements (back triggers, touchpads, dynamic swith to gyro)
- free online play
- the freedom of choice of a PC
- being produced by a notable, reliable global company that has a great standing with its customers (so at least equal with Nintendo here)
Those are the points that come to my mind. Based on that list, I feel confident that it's fair to say: The Steam Deck is better than the Switch. Of course, there are special cases where some only cares about Mario Kart and thus will prefer the Switch and I'm not saying that the Switch isn't still a fun system. But that's a personal decision then. The list I compiled is objective. It'd be unfair to dismiss "the Steam Deck is better" based only on subjective feelings. If that were an acceptable argument, then no product in the history of products would ever be allowed to called "better than X", because you'd always find some special person with a special taste. I'm sure someone out there enjoyed Superman 64 ;>
I hope you can acknowledge that I gave my best attempt to display why the Steam Deck is better beyond "SoC". And again, this is not some slight against the Switch. It's a 2017 device vs a 2022-device. It's expected. It will change again once the Switch 2 is revealed (although tbh I don't expect it to keep up feature-wise with Steam Deck, not that it needs to). Saying "Steam Deck is better than Switch" is not some console warrior-drivel, it's a calm observation made to express that the Steam Deck is a good, quality, desireable product. And from there, sales disussion can proceed. If we cannot even agree that the Steam Deck is a better product hardware/feature-wise, then sales debate becomes moot, because then nobody would have any reason to believe the Steam Deck to sell at all. After all, if you want to sell next to Nintendo, you need to put in the effort to even have a chance, right?
It is absolutely fair when people make low sales forecasts for the Steam Deck and there's plenty of good reasons to cite for that. But to question the quality of the product itself just has no basis in reality at this point, unless we later learn that there are some severe issues. I hope we can get past the mutual accusations and focus on the sales part, not on whether or not the product is of better quality. Is it of better desirability? That's the interesting question.
PS: In case any of this came off as aggressive or offensive, I want to make clear that was not my intention and I appreciate most of your postings, cw_sasuke. After all, I've been reading yours for years, too, on the old place.
The Aya Neo is a competitor to the Steam Deck and they are teasing a new product. Though it looks like a set top box rather than a handheld?
EDIT: they deleted the post and made a new one
Not sure what people expect at this stage. Every console people complain about the OS side but this is quite standard these days.The delay was already announced a couple of weeks ago, so its not exactly news anymore.
Didnt expect the OS footprint to be this big to begin with +20gb would have been massive.
Seems like things might come in hot in February, lets hope they dont have to delay it again.
Might have not been posted in this thread, since it doesnt really affect most longterm expectation for this device and is sold out for a while anyway.I totally missed this... Was this also mentioned on IB somewhere at the time?
SteamOS3 will be public soon after the Deck launch so it should work on all kinds of PC, including competitors ala AyaNeo.Won't be a box. The big question for me - with Aya have a Steam OS version or continue with Windows? Valve need more people on that platform to ensure support for all games.
Would help Aya reduce the price too.
Not sure what people expect at this stage. Every console people complain about the OS side but this is quite standard these days.
To me it just suggests the cheaper Deck is fairly limited and just exists to give a low 'From*' price point.
Might have not been posted in this thread, since it doesnt really affect most longterm expectation for this device and is sold out for a while anyway.
SteamOS3 will be public soon after the Deck launch so it should work on all kinds of PC, including competitors ala AyaNeo.
I dont see how this would help them reduce the price though, where is the relation ?
Also dont quote follow your comment about the OS footprint, what are "console people" complaining about ?
The OS cost is really a very small part of the price once you are charging over 1k for a device, it wont make any difference for people interested in this kind of hardware. Would need to be half the price to appeal to the SD audience.It's not the biggest cost on the hardware but Steam OS3 will be free and Windows will have an additional licensing cost.
I mean people complain about the size of every consoles OS when they launch. OSs are just big these days.
Microsoft Windows licenses are not free. But the bigger advantage, adapting the system to the hardware, is more likely to make a difference.I dont see how this would help them reduce the price though, where is the relation ?
We are in a thread where many see the Deck as competitor to Switch. There it does make a big difference.The OS cost is really a very small part of the price once you are charging over 1k for a device
1. I didn't say Win licenses are free but the cost are minor once the device is already that expensive. 50 bucks more or less ain't gonna make or break a case for a niche device of that level, nor gonna put the device into the price weight class of the Deck or a Switch.Microsoft Windows licenses are not free. But the bigger advantage, adapting the system to the hardware, is more likely to make a difference.
We are in a thread where many see the Deck as competitor to Switch. There it does make a big difference.
Isn't Windows free on devices with screens smaller than 9 inches? Or did they change that policy?Microsoft Windows licenses are not free. But the bigger advantage, adapting the system to the hardware, is more likely to make a difference.
We are in a thread where many see the Deck as competitor to Switch. There it does make a big difference.
as far as I know it still isIsn't Windows free on devices with screens smaller than 9 inches? Or did they change that policy?
"We're going to have a launch that looks like a significant number of users right out of the gate, and then build that over time, rather than having the biggest splash on day one and then generally declining after that," he said. "If you extend the timeline out through 2022 and all the way to 2023, we expect to be building on our numbers constantly throughout that whole time, to the point where there's many millions of customers if things go the way we think they will, who are using Steam Deck by the end of that year or so, through 2023."
The biggest issue for Aya isn't the OS cost, it's how much profit margin they need to make from the hardware sale vs BoM. Valve has another way to make money off Steam deck aka the store, Aya and the like don't really.The big question for me - with Aya have a Steam OS version or continue with Windows? Valve need more people on that platform to ensure support for all games.
Would help Aya reduce the price too.
One further aspect is economy of scale. Mainstream consoles and handheld profit of it, and so do common PC designs. A PC handheld is the very definition of a niche so far though so I don't think Aya, the biggest manufacturer in that area so far, had much economy of scale to profit from so far.The biggest issue for Aya isn't the OS cost, it's how much profit margin they need to make from the hardware sale vs BoM. Valve has another way to make money off Steam deck aka the store, Aya and the like don't really.
Yeah that's the other key one.One further aspect is economy of scale. Mainstream consoles and handheld profit of it, and so do common PC designs. A PC handheld is the very definition of a niche so far though so I don't think Aya, the biggest manufacturer in that area so far, had much economy of scale to profit from so far.
"Other companies should build machines to our specs and use our software so we can increase our marketshare without putting any skin in the game" is a model that already failed for Valve once, don't know what would make it more enticing this time around
Even if it isn't, you can legally install Windows without ever activating it, and all it will ever do is prevent you from changing the desktop background. Nothing else is ever turned off or disabled.Isn't Windows free on devices with screens smaller than 9 inches? Or did they change that policy?
What the...? Is this a copy/pasta?Very very successful and Nintendo should be sweating bullets nervously. The Steam Deck has MUCH more games support than the Vita or PSP and insanely powerful with a reasonably price point. Ever since the Steam Deck announcement Nintendo's stock took a deep dive and has never recovered, given this is the biggest threat to the Nintendo's handheld gaming empire ever.
Also calling portable PC gaming niche is stupidity. You have a 120 million userbase day one and with emulation the Steam Deck can do everything the Switch can and more. People already own hundreds of games on this platform so this is not an unknown newcomer with no support. It is going to sell as many as Valve can produce for years to come.
Aya's gen 2 Neo is supposed to have a better system, which isn't hard. whether that just means Cezanne (Zen3/Vega) or Rembrandt (Zen3/RDNA2) is up in the air
don't really need a reveal to know this will be priced way the hell out of the common marketAt what price is key. At least in the context of this thread. Fortunately, only 7 days until we find out.
That's what I thought, so I'm not sure why the Aya Neo or its successor are being discussed here. The whole reason for Steam Deck-hype is because of the price point. PC-handhelds of that prowess used to be in the 1000+ dollars space. The Steam Deck brings it down to 399.don't really need a reveal to know this will be priced way the hell out of the common market