Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth - Which Potential ?

[BTB123]

The sales numbers used to be much higher, you're saying? Why did they contract?

I didn't say anything like that. Just an example of games that used to reach that milestone every year. ACNH reached 1M for example.

 

[StardustTraveler]

Only FIFA (and 1 Call of Duty game) was hitting the 1 million+ Awards. It wasn't so much contracting but, trying to broaden how many games can receive the award.

I didn't say anything like that. Just an example of games that used to reach that milestone every year. ACNH reached 1M for example.

Oh. I assumed that reducing the thresholds for sales awards was done because game were selling less. My mistake.

 

[Djehuty]

In light of the Dring events in UK thread and what is a general forum stance, let's avoid making a stink of what people say on social media just because they don't spell out everything for you.

plus hes right, 16 and remake were not flops .

Post automatically merged: Apr 17, 2024

I've been wondering if there has been a remake of a game as successful as FF7 that has replicated that success, like FF7, was probably the most successful game of that generation, do you guys have some examples? I have no idea how SE though they could replicate that success, sure the market is much bigger that it was in those days, so maybe that was their idea? I mean who knows how many times more expensive this remake trilogy is going to end up being compared to the original, so I guess they at least wanted at least a similar growth of profit from that exponential growth of investment.

Overall I fail to see, business wise, why this was greenlit at all, but by now we know that this industry, especially in Japan doesn't seem to be entirely driven by business sense so maybe it's not surprising.

leon kennedy, enough said.

 

[Drblitzk]

Thanks everyone, quite a few examples, and most of them did in fact not exceed or even match the sales of the originals, and the reasons for each being suggested or even greenlit (and their budgets) being quite different.

With the first party ones (Nintendo mostly with Zelda, but Sony also with TLOU, Shadow of the Colossus, Demon's Souls) being mostly about padding their schedule between other big releases, and with the Zelda ones with a quite limited budget, meaning that they don't necessarily have to be as successful as the originals to be quite profitable, the Crash situation was mostly about reviving the franchise after a looong hiatus, in the end it failed in reviving it, but by itself did pretty good, but not as good as the originals combined, while RE and Pokémon seems to be the ones that have included remakes as part of their cycle between new entries to keep people engaged with their franchises.

In fact, the REmakes were the ones I had in the back of my head with them feeling quite similar to FF7R in terms of rescoping the original games to be more in line with current era games and they now fill an important part Capcom's schedule giving it chance to alternate between new releases and remakes around every 2 years, the difference being that the every REmake will end up being even more successful than the original FF7 let alone the original RE games (RE2 at least, 3 and 4 may have a chance). that does not seems to be a possible route for SE and FF due to the scope of the games being so different, having to split it in several games with a much much bigger budget than the REmakes and with each of its parts being unable to reach the original heights I feel this is going to be an one and done, and not really a way to maintain a certain cadence of releases like Capcom managed.

 

[Jatinder5ingh]

Crash situation was mostly about reviving the franchise after a looong hiatus, in the end it failed in reviving it, but by itself did pretty good, but not as good as the originals combined.

Crash remakes were successful in reviving the series, we got a Crash 4 because of them. Unfortunately Crash 4 is what didn't do well and killed it again.

 

[Jimmy Joe]

Square-Enix certainly could scope actual remakes into single games. I suspect that a theoretical FF8, FF9, or FF10 remake could be released in a single volume. It's not clear if they're interested in doing that, though

 

[Drblitzk]

Crash remakes were successful in reviving the series, we got a Crash 4 because of them. Unfortunately Crash 4 is what didn't do well and killed it again.

Not really? Yes 4 came out, and according to people it's good, but it seems the reason the trilogy did good was clearly nostalgia and that it was a cheaper game, so not really sparking interest in the series continuing, which I guess, was a big reason for doing a remake.

 

[GoldenFingers]

Square-Enix certainly could scope actual remakes into single games. I suspect that a theoretical FF8, FF9, or FF10 remake could be released in a single volume. It's not clear if they're interested in doing that, though

They just remade 1-6 as single games, and all of the supposed leaks of 9 say that is a single game. Of the 50 remakes they've done only once have they split it into multiple games and there is no reason to think that is somehow a norm now.

FF7 is split across pretty clear lines. 3 games and 3 scales.

 

[StardustTraveler]

Square-Enix certainly could scope actual remakes into single games. I suspect that a theoretical FF8, FF9, or FF10 remake could be released in a single volume. It's not clear if they're interested in doing that, though

I always assumed 7 Remake being split into a trilogy was a one-off thing that could only be justified by FF7's enormous commercial success (both the original and the following compilation of FF7 works). Never thought the other games would get multi-part remakes.

 

[Mekanos]

I'd actually be interested in a potential FF10 remake because I have problems with the Sphere Grid, but idk if they'd make the changes I'd like them to.

 

[Koni]

A friend brought this up, and I dont remember if it was brought up here, but it's something that's easy to overlook in enthusiast circles and forums even though it shouldn't:

But very few gamers actually finish the games they buy. I am 100% guilty of this as of recent years, but yeah.

Here's a scientific report on the matter:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1875952118300181

This research analyzed video game completion rates using achievement data from a sample of 725 games on Valve Corporation’s Steam service and found that, for most games, only a minority of players (M = 14%, Mdn = 10%) finish the games they start.

Not only will people fall off between parts, but people will fall off during said parts as well. Plus there's likely a not insignificant amount of people who played the original FF7 and really only experienced Midgar before they stopped playing. Or perhaps they stopped with the end of Disc One. Still.

 

[theprodigy]

A friend brought this up, and I dont remember if it was brought up here, but it's something that's easy to overlook in enthusiast circles and forums even though it shouldn't:

But very few gamers actually finish the games they buy. I am 100% guilty of this as of recent years, but yeah.

Here's a scientific report on the matter:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1875952118300181

Not only will people fall off between parts, but people will fall off during said parts as well. Plus there's likely a not insignificant amount of people who played the original FF7 and really only experienced Midgar before they stopped playing. Or perhaps they stopped with the end of Disc One. Still.

tbf if it's using Steam data it's probably got a lot of games that were sold dirt cheap and people impulse bought and didn't play, I think looking at other JRPGs and/or PS exclusives would give a better idea of completion rates for FF7 (among non-PS+ players)

 

[StardustTraveler]

tbf if it's using Steam data it's probably got a lot of games that were sold dirt cheap and people impulse bought and didn't play, I think looking at other JRPGs and/or PS exclusives would give a better idea of completion rates for FF7 (among non-PS+ players)

Does anyone have the Playstation trophy data for Remake? It's possible to track what percentage of players have completed the game by seeing the achievement statistics, right?

Edit: this article says 53.3% of players on PlayStation finished Remake as of September 2020.

When completing games on the PlayStation 4, players can earn an achievement that shows other players they have finished the story. This trophies also keep track of the percentage of players that obtain the award. According to a recent screenshot, more than half of The Last of Us 2 players completed the game — 58% to be exact.

This percentage is much higher than other popular PS4 games, with the next highest games by completion rate, Final Fantasy 7 Remake and God of War, at 53.3% and 51.8% respectively. While this game has the highest completion rate of all time, this does not necessarily mean that it has the highest number of player completions total. The Naughty Dog title takes around 20 to 40 hours to finish the full story, so fans have devoted a lot of time to this game and seeing the story all the way to the conclusion.

Looking at the steam achievements, we can see that the completion rate on PC is 29.8%.

 

[Belthazar]

Square-Enix certainly could scope actual remakes into single games. I suspect that a theoretical FF8, FF9, or FF10 remake could be released in a single volume. It's not clear if they're interested in doing that, though

FF7 could've easily been a single game scoped around the same breadth of Rebirth, but frankly it would've probably been a lot less cost-effective than splitting it in 3. I mean, putting all of the story in a single game with a world scoped as Rebirth's (only bigger, due to a few regions missing) + Midgar (even if smaller than Remake's) + flying would've definitely have taken close to what the entire trilogy took to make (and would have costs proportional to that). So even if it sold like 10 million copies or something, it was still a better deal to make the 3 games even with the diminishing returns commercially by each installment.

 

[Jimmy Joe]

FF7 could've easily been a single game scoped around the same breadth of Rebirth, but frankly it would've probably been a lot less cost-effective than splitting it in 3. I mean, putting all of the story in a single game with a world scoped as Rebirth's (only bigger, due to a few regions missing) + Midgar (even if smaller than Remake's) + flying would've definitely have taken close to what the entire trilogy took to make (and would have costs proportional to that). So even if it sold like 10 million copies or something, it was still a better deal to make the 3 games even with the diminishing returns commercially by each installment.

To me the answer is to not scope it like Remake and Rebirth, and in fact make the game smaller

 

[Gotdatmoney]

FF7 could've easily been a single game scoped around the same breadth of Rebirth, but frankly it would've probably been a lot less cost-effective than splitting it in 3. I mean, putting all of the story in a single game with a world scoped as Rebirth's (only bigger, due to a few regions missing) + Midgar (even if smaller than Remake's) + flying would've definitely have taken close to what the entire trilogy took to make (and would have costs proportional to that). So even if it sold like 10 million copies or something, it was still a better deal to make the 3 games even with the diminishing returns commercially by each installment.

There is no reason to believe if they scoped FF7 Remake to the same breadth as Rebirth (maybe a bit bigger) that it would somehow cost as much as 3 whole separate games that are what larger in scope combined. That makes absolutely 0 sense.

Even if it was a structurally bigger game, the time to make it would not be the 10 years the trilogy will take to make and it obviously wouldn't have all the same content since it wouldn't need to justify a full price tag 3x over, only once. It would be more expansive than any single game in the series but not more than all 3 combined.

Then there is the opportunity cost in making 3 games in which each subsequent title sells less while costing as much if not more than the one before. It's definitely is a better deal to make one game that would sell 10 million and have that staff free to make other potentially more attractive titles.

 

[Godzilla]

Found this on reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/s/kPLwEyzntf

Couldn't find the tweet that's it's based on, so it must have been deleted?

Anyway, nothing too good about this

 

[Astrogamer]

It could be about Dragon's Dogma 2 but from the fact he deleted it, it seems to be about Final Fantasy 7. I would guess that Dragon's Dogma 2 overtook Rebirth for the year as usually he doesn't really talk about month 2 performances especially when there's going to be 3-4 new games in the rankings

 

[BoktaiFan]

The SE quarterly results are going to be very telling

 

[AruanaRiva]

It could be about Dragon's Dogma 2 but from the fact he deleted it, it seems to be about Final Fantasy 7. I would guess that Dragon's Dogma 2 overtook Rebirth for the year as usually he doesn't really talk about month 2 performances especially when there's going to be 3-4 new games in the rankings

Despite DD2 explosive launch. I think DD2 leg has been far worse than FF7R there. So i don't think the comparison is going to be favorable to DD2 at this moment.

The SE quarterly results are going to be very telling

When is the result coming?

 

[Person]

When is the result coming?

In 2 weeks. 5/12.

 

[AngryAlchemist]

Despite DD2 explosive launch. I think DD2 leg has been far worse than FF7R there. So i don't think the comparison is going to be favorable to DD2 at this moment.

In NA? You think so? I really doubt that. While Dragon Dogma 2's legs were much worse than 7R's in Japan, in the U.K. it had much better legs with a 67% decline 2nd week versus Rebirth's 89%, and Chris Dring even alluded to its legs being better when he said that he expects Dragon Dogma 2's Playstation total to catch up to Rebirths despite DD2 having a PC split. I'd expect NA to be much more similar to U.K., probably even more extreme if anything, than Japan. Especially because Dragon Dogma 2's Steam decline was actually fairly normal in the 2nd week, especially after the performance patch (it was #5-#6 for a few more days after that). Also Daniel Ahmed's comments about Rebirth being at "about half" of Remake a month in, which is probably 2-2.5 million, would again make it pretty unlikely that Rebirth's legs are significantly better since first two weeks would have been extremely close in sell through (Rebirth actually outsold DD2 in Europe and most likely Japan).

I know it's not a DD2 thread, but yeah, I don't see much reason Rebirth would have better legs in NA, even with how bad DD2's ended up being.

 

[GodlyTrident]

So we will finally get the numbers. Of some game.

 

[Rainy]

I'd assume Rebirth is probably in the lower part of the top 10 for March NPD and DD2 will overtake it in the YTD chart (DD2 probably will go to #4 and Rebirth will move down to #5).

That does indeed sound right as we know DD2 is at 2.5 million and Rebirth might be around or slightly lower than that. Though the Twin Pack was at #16 on the YTD chart after February NPD too, so guess that factors into overall sales.

 

[Tbone5189]

I'd assume Rebirth is probably in the lower part of the top 10 for March NPD and DD2 will overtake it in the YTD chart (DD2 probably will go to #4 and Rebirth will move down to #5).

That does indeed sound right as we know DD2 is at 2.5 million and Rebirth might be around or slightly lower than that. Though the Twin Pack was at #16 on the YTD chart after February NPD too, so guess that factors into overall sales.

Rebirth is also >>> in Japan by 300k+, so rebirth should be closer to 3mil. It depends on NA I guess

 

[westlake]

The issue with Final Fantasy is that it took 18 years for Square to finally get a critically acclaimed title which was the standard up until FF XII, even FFXVI was still met with a mixed response somewhat. Rivals like Persona are now regarded as the top franchise JRPG, and Yakuza Like a Dragon has made a significant market penetration with the latest title.

Think about Halo, once a major prestige FPS, its last title to be considered unanimously great was Reach, all 343i titles have been met with a negative response from the fanbase which in turns it spreads to the general public over the years, why would someone invests in a franchise that has been poorly mouthed for more than a decade?

 

[Rainy]

With the NPD numbers in I think my estimate was correct. Probably 2.5 million sold/shipped best case?

 

[Belthazar]

I keep thinking about Rebirth a lot and it kinda sucks how it has all the right lessons to be learned on AAA development, like focusing resources on creating actual meaningful content instead of making sure every rock and blade of grass looks perfect and how preserving talent clearly leads to painless development and quick turnaround for games... while at the same time also having all the wrong lessons to be learned on publishing, like kneecapping your commercial potential by artificially limiting your audience.

I really hope the team applies that same development philosophy whenever it's time for them to make a new mainline FF and it becomes a hit.

 

[Rainy]

It seems kind of destined that after part 3, Hamaguchi will probably headline a new mainline FF. We’ll see how that goes.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I keep thinking about Rebirth a lot and it kinda sucks how it has all the right lessons to be learned on AAA development, like focusing resources on creating actual meaningful content instead of making sure every rock and blade of grass looks perfect and how preserving talent clearly leads to painless development and quick turnaround for games... while at the same time also having all the wrong lessons to be learned on publishing, like kneecapping your commercial potential by artificially limiting your audience.

I really hope the team applies that same development philosophy whenever it's time for them to make a new mainline FF and it becomes a hit.

We've known from the start that these multi part games sell fewer and fewer units with each release. They certainly should include more platforms but that likely doesn't stop Rebirth from experiencing notable decline.

 

[GodlyTrident]

We've known from the start that these multi part games sell fewer and fewer units with each release. They certainly should include more platforms but that likely doesn't stop Rebirth from experiencing notable decline.

I am still wondering who came up with the idea to split the game into three parts like that. Guess nobody expected that gamedev would take that much time.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I am still wondering who came up with the idea to split the game into three parts like that. Guess nobody expected that gamedev would take that much time.

Someone at SE but I remember it being dumb and killing my interest in the project. I like FF7 but I don't want to play it stretch out into 200 hours of content at 3x the price over 10 years.

 

[sfortunato]

They overestimated Final Fantasy VII legacy and likely underestatimed the time to develop new entries. Remake was in development hell for some years.

A 2-part remake would have made more sense.

 

[Super_T]

Maybe the simplest solution is cut part 3 in a story-DLC for part 2 with release in a year.

The world and the characters are the same and however cd3 was smaller than cd1 and cd2 in the original.

 

[Belthazar]

Maybe the simplest solution is cut part 3 in a story-DLC for part 2 with release in a year.

The world and the characters are the same and however cd3 was smaller than cd1 and cd2 in the original.

That would be the worst possible outcome outside of outright cancelling it.

 

[MegaBulborb]

Maybe the simplest solution is cut part 3 in a story-DLC for part 2 with release in a year.

The world and the characters are the same and however cd3 was smaller than cd1 and cd2 in the original.

At this point they are fully committed, so I think they’ll just go for it and hope that an all-in-one bundle will attract new people (which probably won’t happen). This remake trilogy is basically for the hardcore fans at this point.

It’s sad, but it seems to be the case…

 

[Josh5890]

From the article:

The PlayStation 5 exclusive Rebirth reviewed really well, but the buzz has been that it hasn’t sold nearly as well as 2020’s Final Fantasy VII Remake. Square Enix itself hasn’t announced its sales.

Today we learned that Rebirth is the fourth best-selling game in the U.S. for the year, according to Circana’s sales tracking. That doesn’t sound too bad, right?

(There’s also a combo pack of Rebirth and Remake that is the 27th best-selling game of the year, Circana’s Mat Piscatella told Game File.)

Circana says Rebirth is 14th in dollar sales, lifetime, for all Final Fantasy games in the U.S. That might be good? There have been a lot of FF games.

But Rebirth is indeed well behind Remake in the U.S.. Its life-to-date dollar sales are “down by a double-digit percentage when compared to Remake over the same time period,” Piscatella told me.

One popular explanation for Rebirth’s lower sales is that Remake was selling into a 100-million unit PlayStation 4 installed base, while Rebirth can only reach about half of that with the younger PS5.

That’s true, but even last year’s PS5-only Final Fantasy XVI appears to have had a significantly hotter start than Rebirth. Per Circana’s Piscatella, Rebirth’s life-to-date dollar sales are also down a double-digit percentage compared to Final Fantasy XVI.

In other words, Rebirth’s problems appear to go beyond the devices on which it was offered.

 

[Aostia82]

From the article:

well, hard to not see Rebirth's sales as possibly problematic at this point

 

[MegaBulborb]

From the article:

Damn, brutal…. Hate to see it.

 

[GodlyTrident]

From the article:

Double digits behind FF16, despite being open world and FF7 and with digital bundle.

It really shows how detached online communities are from the real world.

 

[Neo_arcadia7]

You know I initially expected rebirth to perform on par with FFXVI maybe even remake out of the gate but looking back… it’s tough. What if FFXVI was your first FF? Jumping into a sequel to another FF that’s not even remotely close to what you just played..? That’s a hard sell. The sequel in itself is also questionable while it’s reviewed so well (the best in decades) the charm has warn off.. people played remake & that could have been it for them…. I was thinking the incredible reviews would bolster sales with good wom & maybe if it wins GOTY that could boost sales but it’s now a messy situation for part three. Time will tell.

 

[Tokuiten]

Open world in itself simply isn't a major draw anymore, we've seen several underperform in recent years. It's what you do with it.

A lot has been said, but if I had to name what this franchise needs, it's to feel 'fresh'. And not just by trying to go after stuff that other games have done already (Witcher 3, Game of Thrones, etc.). But that's really a general criticism against 'next gen', gaming has never felt like such a straight continuation from last gen, and some games suffer more from it than others.

 

[BoktaiFan]

Your more than willing to disagree with my assessment. Personally I think talking about a game releasing in February as a lock for GOTY is premature.

That and I have already listed my reasons for why I don't believe FF7R will see sales much higher than FF16.

If you think it will sell 5 million day 1 or 10 million in a year then be my guest. But lets look at another famed remake that got a 93 metacritic. RE4. Released in March and by the end of 2024 it had only sold 6.5 million despite also on PS4,XSX, and PC. Now its not "Open world" but I think given similar FF games, remakes, JRPGS, etc my prediction will be closer to reality in the end.

Wild to look back on the first few pages of this thread right after the reviews.

Turns out my prediction of slightly better than FF16 was too high!

 

[Liha]

Disaster for SE. The crowded release schedule could have diverted potential sales which resulted in the lackluster performance. Games are getting more and more expensive and I think not everybody has enough money to buy several games a month (Tekken, Helldivers, Yakuza, Persona, Rise of the Ronin, DD2), especially when the game is a remake of a 25 year old game.

 

[Ventinor]

SE Financials should be interesting this month, if their other segments aren't picking up slack for the quarter it could be pretty bad.

 

[JMECH2000]

SE Financials should be interesting this month, if their other segments aren't picking up slack for the quarter it could be pretty bad.

Not to mention the cancellations

 

[CaptainCrunch]

SE Financials should be interesting this month, if their other segments aren't picking up slack for the quarter it could be pretty bad.

I wouldn't expect such scenario, IIRC their gaming division is more stable and profitable than others (~20% margin)

 

[GodlyTrident]

SE Financials should be interesting this month, if their other segments aren't picking up slack for the quarter it could be pretty bad.

If FF14 on Xbox is not some level of success, I don't see any bright spot for SE finances there.

 

[Belthazar]

If FF14 on Xbox is not some level of success, I don't see any bright spot for SE finances there.

And considering how Microsoft butchered that release in multiple ways... I can't see it being much of a success there.

 

[GodlyTrident]

And considering how Microsoft butchered that release in multiple ways... I can't see it being much of a success there.

Define butchered though? We don't know the financial results of FF14 on Xbox and online talk (as Rebirth demonstrated) does not match with reality.