Xbox Developer_Direct January 18 (12pm PT / 3pm ET / 8pm UK): Indiana Jones, Avowed, Ara: History Untold, Senua’s Saga: Hellblade II (No ABK updates)

[America`s Most Wanted]

As for Hellblade 2: Even if it's not actually AAA, MS is certainly positioning it like one, a major, if not THE major release of 2024.

In my opinion and perception they killed at least a good chunk of the momentum the game had have with their player base up to this point with the announcement of a digital only release. In some boards i visit Hellblade II ist suddenly no talking topic at all after it was for years, it`s all Indy now.

 

[BTB123]

I find it quite odd why Hellblade II was being marketed to look like a big budget AAA at first only to then reel it all back in like that.

 

[ILikeFeet]

I find it quite odd why Hellblade II was being marketed to look like a big budget AAA at first only to then reel it all back in like that.

maybe the mock reviews weren't as positive this time around

 

[Remember_spinal]

maybe the mock reviews weren't as positive this time around

Rumors are the mock reviews are in the low 90’s.

I think Microsoft just needed a ‘showpiece’ game to market the power of the series x consoles. It was more about marketing the hardware than the actual game

 

[Tiddums]

The choice to make it $50 is likely to do with critic and audience expectations around the length of full priced games. Launching a $70 game with a 7-8 hour story mode and nothing else (maybe some collectables?) would result in it being torn to pieces even if the quality of the game was high otherwise. Hellblade 1 launched at $30 so this is already a significant increase over the last game in the series, which was of similar length.

Expectations around the length of sp focused games has increased quite a bit over the last ~15 years. The Order: 1886 is one I specifically remember being destroyed in reviews because of lack of length/value. Most of the popular full price solo games have been big open world titles, and the ones that aren't still tend to be pretty beefy in terms of content. Sony's flagship SP titles have ballooned from ~8-10 hours in the PS3 gen to ~20 hours or more these days.

 

[RDragon]

Rumors are the mock reviews are in the low 90’s.

I think Microsoft just needed a ‘showpiece’ game to market the power of the series x consoles. It was more about marketing the hardware than the actual game

The problem with the mock reviews from MS, they also had Red Fall scoring double digits higher than the MC score, and those scores are generous compared to the average user's experience.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

The problem with the mock reviews from MS, they also had Red Fall scoring double digits higher than the MC score, and those scores are generous compared to the average user's experience.

Mock reviewers always assume that bugs, glitches, performance issues etc. are fixed by release so they rate the game as if those issues didn't exist. With Redfall, the devs weren't able to polish up the game prior to release so the actual review scores were lower. We'll see how it goes with Hellblade II.

 

[RDragon]

Mock reviewers always assume that bugs, glitches, performance issues etc. are fixed by release so they rate the game as if those issues didn't exist. With Redfall, the devs weren't able to polish up the game prior to release so the actual review scores were lower. We'll see how it goes with Hellblade II.

Even without the bugs and performance issues, Red Fall shouldn't have scored double digits higher.

 

[master94ga]

Even without the bugs and performance issues, Red Fall shouldn't have scored double digits higher.

In the actuat state I think yes, right now is a decent game that would get around 70 on MC.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Even without the bugs and performance issues, Red Fall shouldn't have scored double digits higher.

Many reviews have explicitly mentioned "rampant technical issues". I think without those issues, the game reviewing 1 out of 10 points higher sounds plausible.

 

[RDragon]

Many reviews have explicitly mentioned "rampant technical issues". I think without those issues, the game reviewing 1 out of 10 points higher sounds plausible.

Keep in mind, while Red Fall is currently sitting around a 56, it was closer to the 70s when it released. Meaning, internal reviews had it close to the 80s, which would be around where Days Gone scored with a 77. There is no way that it should be high even with its technical issue fixed since the game itself is highly flawed on a foundation level.

 

[fiendcode]

The problem with the mock reviews from MS, they also had Red Fall scoring double digits higher than the MC score, and those scores are generous compared to the average user's experience.

Irrelevant since it's likely not run by the same MS focus groups. Zenimax and XBGS have different infrastructures for this stuff and are still siloed for production and publishing.

 

[RDragon]

Irrelevant since it's likely not run by the same MS focus groups. Zenimax and XBGS have different infrastructures for this stuff and are still siloed for production and publishing.

That isn't how Phil described it. He called it 'their internal reviewers' not Beth's or whatever. Maybe Phil was being nice by not throwing Beth under the bus, but the fact remains MS took reasonability for the internal reviews.

Add to that the state Froza launched by Turn 10 no less in and you have to question MS' QA.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

The marketing team and development team aren’t always on the same page, Especially with gigantic companies like Microsoft and newly acquired companies like NT.

 

[fiendcode]

That isn't how Phil described it. He called it 'their internal reviewers' not Beth's or whatever. Maybe Phil was being nice by not throwing Beth under the bus, but the fact remains MS took reasonability for the internal reviews.

Add to that the state Froza launched by Turn 10 no less in and you have to question MS' QA.

Phil is head of MS Gaming, that covers both XBGS and Zenimax. All the production apparatus are under him, that doesn't mean their publishing is unified though (and it isn't). Unless you have some clear sourcing for a distinct internal review separate from the actual group divisions?

This is like arguing over magazine scores ignoring that it's not one reviewer doing everything.

 

[RDragon]

Phil is head of MS Gaming, that covers both XBGS and Zenimax. All the production apparatus are under him, that doesn't mean their publishing is unified though (and it isn't). Unless you have some clear sourcing for a distinct internal review separate from the actual group divisions?

This is like arguing over magazine scores ignoring that it's not one reviewer doing everything.

But there is also no evidence that MS’ internal reviewers didn’t check the game. And it really doesn’t matter since Beth is MS now as Phil himself pointed out. Beth and MS not being untied is its own issue.

 

[fiendcode]

But there is also no evidence that MS’ internal reviewers didn’t check the game. And it really doesn’t matter since Beth is MS now as Phil himself pointed out. Beth and MS not being untied is its own issue.

I'm asking if there's any evidence for a distinct floating "MS internal review" division at all? Because if not using Redfall (Zenimax) to refute Hellblade 2 (XBGS) under internal review doesn't make sense, they're separate divisions.

 

[RDragon]

I'm asking if there's any evidence for a distinct floating "MS internal review" division at all? Because if not using Redfall (Zenimax) to refute Hellblade 2 (XBGS) under internal review doesn't make sense, they're separate divisions.

I am going by what Phil said and that Red Fall scored double digit higher than what reviewers gave it, which is an issue even if they did it by removing all the technical issues. Saying it was Beth's internal reviews and not MS means little to me since Beth is part of MS, has been for several years, and if there is a disconnect MS needs to fix it. Something Phil acknowledged.

I personally believe Hellblade 2 will be good to great, but it isn't because of MS' internal reviews. It's because Ninja Theory made a good game the first time around so I expect the same for the sequel.

 

[fiendcode]

I am going by what Phil said and that Red Fall scored double digit higher than what reviewers gave it, which is an issue even if they did it by removing all the technical issues. Saying it was Beth's internal reviews and not MS means little to me since Beth is part of MS, has been for several years, and if there is a disconnect MS needs to fix it. Something Phil acknowledged.

I personally believe Hellblade 2 will be good to great, but it isn't because of MS' internal reviews. It's because Ninja Theory made a good game the first time around so I expect the same for the sequel.

But Phil didn't say anything about these internal reviews being by the same division or anything about a centralized review group at all? You're using internal review of a Zenimax game to discredit internal review of an XBGS game, I'm asking if you have sourcing to support those reviews were handled by the same group?

 

[RDragon]

But Phil didn't say anything about these internal reviews being by the same division or anything about a centralized review group at all? You're using internal review of a Zenimax game to discredit internal review of an XBGS game, I'm asking if you have sourcing to support those reviews were handled by the same group?

The fact remains is Beth is part of MS and had been for years now. So it’s on MS if an internal review stated that Red Fall would score double digits higher on MC. Any disconnect between Beth and Booty is their issue that needs to be fix. Which Phil has acknowledged.

Also, Forza being allowed to launched in its condition shows that even MS potion is questionable with quality control since that game needed another six months in the oven.

 

[fiendcode]

The fact remains is Beth is part of MS and had been for years now. So it’s on MS if an internal review stated that Red Fall would score double digits higher on MC. Any disconnect between Beth and Booty is their issue that needs to be fix. Which Phil has acknowledged.

Also, Forza being allowed to launched in its condition shows that even MS potion is questionable with quality control since that game needed another six months in the oven.

The fact remains XBGS and Zenimax are completely siloed below the highest executive levels. Unless you can can bring some actual sourcing to the contrary, you're making an inaccurate and misleading comparison here. And goalposting to Forza QC doesn't really change that, all that reveals is it's clear Hellblade 2 doing well on internal review has you grasping at anything to try and refute it for some reason.

 

[RDragon]

The fact remains XBGS and Zenimax are completely siloed below the highest executive levels. Unless you can can bring some actual sourcing to the contrary, you're making an inaccurate and misleading comparison here. And goalposting to Forza QC doesn't really change that, all that reveals is it's clear Hellblade 2 doing well on internal review has you grasping at anything to try and refute it for some reason.

Which is an issue that Phil talked about. No matter how you split it, Beth is now MS. So saying it was Beth’s internal review gave double digits higher to Red Fall, so therefor we can’t count Hellblade 2 because a different team did the internal review is not only a little weird, it’s speculation.

Refute? The only thing I said was that MS’ internal reviews mean little when Phil said Red Fall scored double digits higher in their internal reviews. You then try say it was a different team without any proof. So how am I grasping?

Goal posting? I mentioned Forza because MS’ quality control even outside of Beth is hit or miss. In short, you really can’t argue that MS’ section or whatever would have scored Red Fall lower if Forza got released in the state it was in.

 

[fiendcode]

Which is an issue that Phil talked about. No matter how you split it, Beth is now MS. So saying it was Beth’s internal review gave double digits higher to Red Fall, so therefor we can’t count Hellblade 2 because a different team did the internal review is not only a little weird, it’s speculation.

Again, production and publishing is different between these group divisions. That isn't speculation, it's a pretty distinct confirmed fact and was even reiterated under oath. The weird speculation is that Hellblade 2's internal review at XBGS is going to be unreliable because Redfall's internal review at Zeni was. You're the one speculating and drawing an invisible connection here.

Refute? The only thing I said was that MS’ internal reviews mean little when Phil said Red Fall scored double digits higher in their internal reviews. You then try say it was a different team without any proof. So how am I grasping?

Goal posting? I mentioned Forza because MS’ quality control even outside of Beth is hit or miss. In short, you really can’t argue that MS’ section or whatever would have scored Red Fall lower if Forza got released in the state it was in.

Unless you can source it, there is no "MS internal review". There isn't a unified overarching apparatus in place for this, each branch has it's own separated processes for everything at this point (XBGS, ZeniMax, ABK). We know this already, the onus isn't on me to prove anything here because that's the established understanding of the structure for MSG. The onus is on you because what you're repeating runs counter to known divisional structure at MSG.

Keep grasping if you like but until you actually begin sourcing anything, I guess we're done.

 

[RDragon]

Again, production and publishing is different between these group divisions. That isn't speculation, it's a pretty distinct confirmed fact and was even reiterated under oath. The weird speculation is that Hellblade 2's internal review at XBGS is going to be unreliable because Redfall's internal review at Zeni was. You're the one speculating and drawing an invisible connection here.



Unless you can source it, there is no "MS internal review". There isn't a unified overarching apparatus in place for this, each branch has it's own separated processes for everything at this point (XBGS, ZeniMax, ABK). We know this already, the onus isn't on me to prove anything here because that's the established understanding of the structure for MSG. The onus is on you because what you're repeating runs counter to known divisional structure at MSG.

Keep grasping if you like but until you actually begin sourcing anything, I guess we're done.

The speculations is that Red Fall was only internal reviewed by Beth. There is no proof of that being the case. What we have is Phi saying ‘our internal reviews had Red Fall score double digits higher’. So I’m taking Phil at his word when he says ‘ours’.

Yes, I don’t trust MS’ internal review because there is no way Red Fall should have got double digits higher than MC, which was around the low 60s when Phil did that interview. What I trust is Ninja Theory’s record that Hellblade 2 will be good.

The word of Phil said ‘ours’. I’m not going to split hairs if he means Beth’s team, a Mario Club type team, or Booty. It’s all MS at the end of the day as Phil himself pointed out. So the proof is on you that Red Fall and Hellblade were reviewed by completely different teams, and therefore Red Fall’s mock reviews was all Beth’s fault.

 

[fiendcode]

The speculations is that Red Fall was only internal reviewed by Beth. There is no proof of that being the case. What we have is Phi saying ‘our internal reviews had Red Fall score double digits higher’. So I’m taking Phil at his word when he says ‘ours’.

Yes, I don’t trust MS’ internal review because there is no way Red Fall should have got double digits higher than MC, which was around the low 60s when Phil did that interview. What I trust is Ninja Theory’s record that Hellblade 2 will be good.

The word of Phil said ‘ours’. I’m not going to split hairs if he means Beth’s team, a Mario Club type team, or Booty. It’s all MS at the end of the day as Phil himself pointed out. So the proof is on you that Red Fall and Hellblade were reviewed by completely different teams, and therefore Red Fall’s mock reviews was all Beth’s fault.

Again, Phil heads all of MSG. Not just Xbox or Bethesda, all of it, everyone in either is "ours" to him. And we know these groups are entirely separated below the highest executive levels.

Unless you can draw a concrete connection between QA/review at Zeni and XBGS, it's an irrelevant correlation you're trying to make. I don't have to prove the divisional structure, you quite literally have to disprove it to make the claim you're staking.

 

[RDragon]

Again, Phil heads all of MSG. Not just Xbox or Bethesda, all of it, everyone in either is "ours" to him. And we know these groups are entirely separated below the highest executive levels.

Unless you can draw a concrete connection between QA/review at Zeni and XBGS, it's an irrelevant correlation you're trying to make. I don't have to prove the divisional structure, you quite literally have to disprove it to make the claim you're staking.

Xbox and Beth are the same. They’re not different entities when Phil stated they need to treat all the departments as one. We can speculate about how Red Fall was mostly likely Beth’s fault, but Phil rightfully said ‘our’ when talking about Red Fall’s failings. It’s no different than how Monolith is Nintendo.

Yeah, you do have to prove it since you’re the one insisting that Red Fall and Hellblade 2 were internal reviews by different teams when you don’t even know how what team or people mocked reviewed Red Fall.

 

[fiendcode]

Xbox and Beth are the same. They’re not different entities when Phil stated they need to treat all the departments as one. We can speculate about how Red Fall was mostly likely Beth’s fault, but Phil rightfully said ‘our’ when talking about Red Fall’s failings. It’s no different than how Monolith is Nintendo.

Yeah, you do have to prove it since you’re the one insisting that Red Fall and Hellblade 2 were internal reviews by different teams when you don’t even know how what team or people mocked reviewed Red Fall.

XBGS and Zenimax aren't the same, they're silhoed. Separate R&D, separate production, separate publishing, etc. I don't have to prove separate teams, it's a given. You need to prove a meaningful direct connection, because you're the one trying to tie internal review of one directly to the other. And at this point it's clear you can't do that.

Also it's entirely different from Nintendo and Monolith as Nintendo EPD literally directly produces everything Monolith touches. They're expressly *not* silhoed, quite the opposite they even co-develop games (Zelda). A better comparison here would be something like Eidos and Gearbox, D3P and Bamco Studios, Atlus and Relic, From and Spike Chunsoft, even Bungie and Aniplex technically come closer.

 

[RDragon]

XBGS and Zenimax aren't the same, they're silhoed. Separate R&D, separate production, separate publishing, etc. I don't have to prove separate teams, it's a given. You need to prove a meaningful direct connection, because you're the one trying to tie internal review of one directly to the other. And at this point it's clear you can't do that.

Also it's entirely different from Nintendo and Monolith as Nintendo EPD literally directly produces everything Monolith touches. They're expressly *not* silhoed, quite the opposite they even co-develop games (Zelda). A better comparison here would be something like Eidos and Gearbox, D3P and Bamco Studios, Atlus and Relic, From and Spike Chunsoft, even Bungie and Aniplex technically come closer.

You don’t get to say something is a given without proof to back it. Especially when you don’t even know how the people or group mocked reviewed Hellblade 2 or Red Fall, and just assumed it had to completely different groups with no crossover or even if one grew did the internal review.

And as I said, it’s all MS at the end of the day. Phil and everyone else sees Beth as part of the same company, and Phil outright said Red Fall failed in large part to not giving that team enough help. Not that they weren’t aware that the game had issues.

 

[fiendcode]

You don’t get to say something is a given without proof to back it. Especially when you don’t even know how the people or group mocked reviewed Hellblade 2 or Red Fall, and just assumed it had to completely different groups with no crossover or even if one grew did the internal review.

And as I said, it’s all MS at the end of the day. Phil and everyone else sees Beth as part of the same company, and Phil outright said Red Fall failed in large part to not giving that team enough help. Not that they weren’t aware that the game had issues.

I do because that is literally the set organizational structure we have established. You're the one arguing for a connection that defies that structure, hence you're the one who needs to source something to support that. But you aren't, because you can't, hence your comparison is irrelevant.