GT7 MTX and the future of Playstation business

[Remember_spinal]

There's an enormous difference in business models between Sony's 1st party studios which leads me to believe they each get alot of freedom in how they operate.

ND and Polyphony are probably the worst, ND had MTX in their MP modes for like a decade and they're pretty egregious. Meanwhile you have games like God of War, Demons Souls, Returnal, Ratchet and Clank, Horizon Forbidden West, etc that either ship a complete game or put out free content with no post game monetization.

It's very possible that we'll never be able to identify a "Sony GaaS strategy" in terms of how the games are monetized because each studio will handle them so differently.

While this is definitely true now I don’t think this is an indication about how they will be proceeding in the future with their GAAS. A couple weeks ago during their future strategy call-thing, they outlined how they are setting up Bungie to co-run another internal division specifically focused on creating some sort of synergy between GAAS titles between studios.

It seems like they are aware that if they allow every studio to dictate their own terms or try and figure it out on their own that it’s going to be a lot more hassle then its worth. This was one of the primary reasons they bought Bungie.

GT7 seems like a cautionary tale for them right now as far as leaving it up to individual studios. A lot of their studios just don’t have the experience running live-service games as they are now.

After seeing how Avengers ended up it seems Sony is going to be creating as little fail states as possible for this new live service game initiative.

I’m sure they want at least a couple of them to be successful long term on the level of Fortnite, Warzone, or APEX

 

[Turenne]

I didn’t mean to use it as the lone example of PlayStation first party MTX. It is recent news so I went with it. Do you think it’ll cause the IP’s to decline? I tend to view MTX as unsustainable but I am open to learning new things.

Fair enough.

I think Playstation IPs and general brand awareness are so strong that it doesn't really matter a huge amount to the larger casual audience. Recent sales figures from the UK suggests sales haven't been hurt too much.

Personally I have quite a few issues with GT7 but I've barely noticed any MTX stuff and generally don't find that there is much in your face buy this shit in the game at all.

 

[adriandlte]

I didn’t mean to use it as the lone example of PlayStation first party MTX. It is recent news so I went with it. Do you think it’ll cause the IP’s to decline? I tend to view MTX as unsustainable but I am open to learning new things.

It's not like they are going to add battle passes to God of War. They'll make GAAS/MTX where it makes sense.

 

[SuperPotato]

Why are they in decline? Is the decline of the 20th century car culture? Or, is it that Sony/Microsoft hasn't done anything to expand the audience? I look at how Mario Kart sells and it's clear that people still like to play racing games in general.

He was talking about sim racers specifically. Asetto Corsa, I Racing, Project Cars, RaceRoom etc. Mario Kart isn't one of those. Sim racers are fairly niche and cater to a very specific group of people (racing enthusiasts with wheel setups). They're also riddled with tons of MTX content. GT, Forza Motorsport and F1 are the only ones with some sort of mainstream appeal.

 

[Old sorta fan]

He was talking about sim racers specifically. Asetto Corsa, I Racing, Project Cars, RaceRoom etc. Mario Kart isn't one of those. Sim racers are fairly niche and cater to a very specific group of people (racing enthusiasts with wheel setups). They're also riddled with tons of MTX content. GT, Forza Motorsport and F1 are the only ones with some sort of mainstream appeal.

Good point. However, didn’t Gran Turismo, Gran Turismo 2, and Gran Turismo 3 cater to a mass audience? What happened? Was it the disaster of the PS3? The car enthusiasts who sims appeal to aging? Getting bored with Gran Turismo? Something else?

 

[Astrogamer]

Good point. However, didn’t Gran Turismo, Gran Turismo 2, and Gran Turismo 3 cater to a mass audience? What happened? Was it the disaster of the PS3? The car enthusiasts who sims appeal to aging? Getting bored with Gran Turismo? Something else?

It's probably due to series like Fast & Furious changing how real car racing is viewed. Like the rise of Need for Speed times well with the decline of Gran Turismo and that series is very influenced by F&F. The rise of Forza Horizon lines up with when the F&F shifted towards more outrageous setpieces. Gran Turismo probably would have weathered better in PS3/PS4 gen if the main releases were more regular though

 

[Old sorta fan]

It's probably due to series like Fast & Furious changing how real car racing is viewed. Like the rise of Need for Speed times well with the decline of Gran Turismo and that series is very influenced by F&F. The rise of Forza Horizon lines up with when the F&F shifted towards more outrageous setpieces. Gran Turismo probably would have weathered better in PS3/PS4 gen if the main releases were more regular though

Thank you for the post. I’m learning as I haven’t been into sim racing games since I played my way through Metropolis Street Racer on the Dreamcast.

Why has Need for Speed declined? Is it just internal EA nonsense or did the series stop selling?

 

[Astrogamer]

Thank you for the post. I’m learning as I haven’t been into sim racing games since I played my way through Metropolis Street Racer on the Dreamcast.

Why has Need for Speed declined? Is it just internal EA nonsense or did the series stop selling?

Both I would say. The series hit its peak around 2010 with Hot Pursuit. The reason it declined is a mix of oversaturation, the rise of competitors and that the development team, Criterion, was no longer content with just Need for Speed games resulting in an exodus of staff. EA trying to solve the issue by moving a significant chunk of the staff that were fine with continuing on Need for Speed to Ghost Games and trying to let Criterion develop their own game, leading to Need for Speed to stall even on its new 2 year schedule and no new Criterion game. I believe the teams have reintegrated (with some Codemasters support) but, now, Need for Speed is competing with Forza Horizon.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

I view this as a negative for Playstation business as this ruins one of the main reasons to buy a Playstation. Playstation can't sell MTX to whales if fewer people bother to pay the $500 to buy the hardware. Software still sells hardware and if you have fewer compelling software titles, you sell less hardware.

The reason a person buys a PlayStation is in essence for their third-party software, their first party titles are just bonuses/extras/the cherry on top. Third party software is already much more egregious and much more severe with the microtransactions. Sony did this doing this with one game from their first party lineup, it will not harm their business.

So I don’t see this as a negative from their business, in fact they are encouraging the business that already exists there.

Remember that from the document during the Epic v Apple case, it showed that with Fortnite, PlayStation back then made almost 50% of the the total revenue, meanwhile XBox, PC, Switch and Mobile made the other 50% (I think they made 53%).

Edit: I shouldn’t say encouraging, but they aren’t stopping it from occurring on their platform from the third parties.


PlayStation and XBox are weirdly very receptive to MTX, then there’s NSwitch and finally PC which is the least receptive to MTX despite having similarities to the consoles in several aspects.

 

[Astrogamer]

The reason a person buys a PlayStation is in essence for their third-party software, their first party titles are just bonuses/extras/the cherry on top. Third party software is already much more egregious and much more severe with the microtransactions. Sony did this doing this with one game from their first party lineup, it will not harm their business.

So I don’t see this as a negative from their business, in fact they are encouraging the business that already exists there.

Remember that from the document during the Epic v Apple case, it showed that with Fortnite, PlayStation back then made almost 50% of the the total revenue, meanwhile XBox, PC, Switch and Mobile made the other 50% (I think they made 53%).

Edit: I shouldn’t say encouraging, but they aren’t stopping it from occurring on their platform from the third parties.


PlayStation and XBox are weirdly very receptive to MTX, then there’s NSwitch and finally PC which is the least receptive to MTX despite having similarities to the consoles in several aspects.

PC's fairly receptive to MTX. It's just that Fortnite and sports games lack a big audience on PC and those are the main drivers of MTX on console. Besides Fortnite, we don't really have any good idea of the platform split for MTX. Valorant, LoL and DOTA2 are all giants despite being PC exclusive.

 

[Salesman]

The MTX prices in GT7 just increased again: The Hagerty's price increases post-1.15 update - 8,337,900 Cr. pending 12 cars with no new engine/body available | GTPlanet

Playstation has shown that they are ok with hurting the gameplay in their flagship first party IP for MTX money. I think this will affect sales of the next Gran Turismo game because it changes the point of the game from getting the skills to virtually drive a crazy expensive to grinding/paying to virtually purchase an expensive car. The point was to virtually drive a car that most people will never even see with their own eyes in their lifetime. Now, GT7 is set up to remind you how expensive those cars are and that you'll never get to drive one virtually or in real life.

Will the next God of War game have MTX? Does this end anywhere?

More importantly, how does this affect Playstation business in the future?


I view this as a negative for Playstation business as this ruins one of the main reasons to buy a Playstation. Playstation can't sell MTX to whales if fewer people bother to pay the $500 to buy the hardware. Software still sells hardware and if you have fewer compelling software titles, you sell less hardware.

Players are whining about legendary cars price increases yet Kaz was VERY clear when GT7 launched that car prices will be adjusted accordingly with Hagerty partnerahip. Also, alongside with car prices are blue arrow which indicates that price will go up or down. I dunno why the players are whining about it. It is totally dumb to use a price increase of legendary cars as an example for future of GAAS.

 

[Blue Monty]

Players are whining about legendary cars price increases yet Kaz was VERY clear when GT7 launched that car prices will be adjusted accordingly. Also, alongside with car prices are blue arrow which indicates that price will go up or down. I dunno why the players are whining about it

I wonder why they would decide to tie the prices to the in-real price of legacy cars

 

[Salesman]

I wonder why they would decide to tie the prices to the in-real price of legacy cars

Maybe because these cars are trully legendary?? Do you know that few weeks ago Mercedes Gullwing SLR300 was sold for +140 mil. $.? Imagine the price of that car in GT7 then.

 

[Blue Monty]

Maybe because these cars are trully legendary?? Do you know that few weeks ago Mercedes Gullwing SL300 was sold for +140 mil. $.?

Since the start of the pandemic there has been an increase in the prices of old cars in general not only the rarest ones, and it will keep only increasing especially for fan-favorite cars of the 90s/early 00s that now people who were kids when they released now are adults with income to afford them but every time there are less in a good state. Tying the prices to in-real prices of legacy cars only causes a constant increase in prices of fan-favorite cars which means more MTX money for Sony.

 

[MysticGon]

Players are whining about legendary cars price increases yet Kaz was VERY clear when GT7 launched that car prices will be adjusted accordingly. Also, alongside with car prices are blue arrow which indicates that price will go up or down. I dunno why the players are whining about it

Because that's annoying. Next thing will be simulating taking your car into a shop and having the technician handing you a bill in the form of an MTX.

It's a video game. Should have all the fun of owning a car collection with none of the hardships.

Sometimes someone just needs to place their hand on hands of the developer who is furiously writing code for shrinking horse testicles and calmly say "enough".

 

[Salesman]

Since the start of the pandemic there has been an increase in the prices of old cars in general not only the rarest ones, and it will keep only increasing especially for fan-favorite cars of the 90s/early 00s that now people who were kids when they released now are adults with income to afford them but every time there are less in a good state. Tying the prices to in-real prices of legacy cars only causes a constant increase in prices of fan-favorite cars which means more MTX money for Sony.

That car was sold during auction at Mercedes-Benz factory in partnership with Sotheby's, it has nothing to do with pandemic, mind you. And it is pretty easy to earn credits in GT7 in multiple ways

Tying the prices to in-real prices of legacy cars only causes a constant increase in prices of fan-favorite cars which means more MTX money for Sony.

More money for Sony ARE NOT guaranteed because you and nobody else are forced to spend money on MTX in GT7.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

PC's fairly receptive to MTX. It's just that Fortnite and sports games lack a big audience on PC and those are the main drivers of MTX on console. Besides Fortnite, we don't really have any good idea of the platform split for MTX. Valorant, LoL and DOTA2 are all giants despite being PC exclusive.

I’m not sure it really is, from the Capcom data breach, PS4 accounted for an overwhelmingly high amount of revenue from MTX compared to PC despite the game performing superb on the platform as well. Whether that holds true in the here and now is a different thing though,

 

[Old sorta fan]

That car was sold during auction at Mercedes-Benz factory in partnership with Sotheby's, it has nothing to do with pandemic, mind you. And it is pretty easy to earn credits in GT7 in multiple ways

That’s quite the apology for asking for more money for a purely fictional digital artwork. The real car is a real object with real scarcity. The car in GT7 is an infinitely copied piece of computer code. I call BS on the idea that tying the cost of MTX to real objects is anything other than avarice.

 

[Salesman]

That’s quite the apology for asking for more money for a purely fictional digital artwork. The real car is a real object with real scarcity. The car in GT7 is an infinitely copied piece of computer code. I call BS on the idea that tying the cost of MTX to real objects is anything other than avarice.

And legendary cars are scarce or better to say rare. Nobody is forcing you to spend money on MTX nor anything in the game is tied to MTX.

 

[MysticGon]

And legendary cars are scarce or better to say rare. Nobody is forcing you to spend money on MTX nor anything in the game is tied to MTX.

If the grind is too unreasonable then it's manipulative and exploitative.

 

[Blue Monty]

More money for Sony ARE NOT guaranteed because you and nobody else are forced to spend money on MTX in GT7.

Making things more expensive and harder to get with in-game play to promote people buying MTX is one of the more common tactics to increase MTX spending per user.

 

[Salesman]

If the grind is too unreasonable then it's manipulative and exploitative.

Grind was worse in GTS and no one complained.

 

[Salesman]

Making things more expensive and harder to get with in-game play to promote people buying MTX is one of the more common tactics to increase MTX spending per user.

In GTS rare cars were also expensive and no one complained about grinding ( which was worse than in GT7) and MTX. IIRC, the most expensive ones were not in MTX there

 

[Blue Monty]

In GTS rare cars were also expensive and no one complained about grinding ( which was worse than in GT7) and MTX

So what? My point was about tying the game prices to in-real game prices will always result on prices increasing due the nature of the in-real market, which is something that Sony likes because it pushes for MTX spending. If the previous game it was harder or easier to grind means nothing because that's not what I'm talking about

 

[Salesman]

So what?

If so what, why are you complaining now, but not few years ago when GTS was active???

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

People have every right to complain about MTX, even in F2P games. Let alone full priced titles.

 

[Old sorta fan]

And legendary cars are scarce or better to say rare. Nobody is forcing you to spend money on MTX nor anything in the game is tied to MTX.

I’ll go ahead and say it... are you a PlayStation marketing rep? Or just a deluded fanboy who loves all things PlayStation so much that you can’t see avarice for what it is?

You don’t have to play FIFA Ultimate Team either but it’s being investigated due to being exploitative gambling:

Investigate EA's FIFA: Ultimate Team for loot-box gambling, groups urge FTC | Fortune

The soccer franchise's lucrative FUT mode is under increasing scrutiny.

fortune.com

It’s also been verified to addict children to gambling before they know better:

Link between loot boxes and problem gambling "robustly verified"

New research has "robustly verified" a link between loot boxes and problem gambling.Researchers at the universities of …

www.eurogamer.net

It’s so bad that Nintendo refunded Ultimate Team MTX when one kid in the UK got a hold of his parents’ debit card and spent the family living expense money on worthless virtual cards.

'The kids emptied our bank account playing Fifa' - BBC News

Fifa players are purchased in packs but it's impossible to see who is in the pack before payment is made.

www.bbc.com

How about MTX in free-to-play GAAS’s? It turns out kids bully each other into spending more MTX and that aspect of the game is put in by Epic Games on purpose: https://www.polygon.com/platform/am...rtnite-rare-default-skins-bullying-harassment

Meanwhile, it would take $110,000 to max up a character in the free-to-play Diablo Immortal. If that’s not exploiting Diablo super fans who happen to suffer from OCD, I don’t know what is: https://gamerant.com/diablo-immortal-pay-to-win-legendary-gems/

Now, to tie this back into cold business and the point of this thread, Nintendo has said they avoid MTX because it would go against their carefully cultivated family friendly image. They think that parents would stop buying Nintendo products for their kids if they know they can be addicted to gambling and not be able to buy groceries. It’s a business decision from a for-profit business.

Do these exploitative MTX affect the Gran Turismo IP? Do the sales of the GT8 go down? Does the decline of the IP affect PlayStation hardware sales?

You can argue that the market won’t care about exploitative MTX. I’d argue the other way but I can see an argument from that point of view too. You can’t argue that they aren’t exploitative of super car nerd whales who are so addicted to getting the virtual cars in GT7 that they’ll spend whatever it takes.

 

[Old sorta fan]

Grind was worse in GTS and no one complained.

That’s bad faith Whatabout-ism.

 

[Salesman]

I’ll go ahead and say it... are you a PlayStation marketing rep? Or just a deluded fanboy who loves all things PlayStation so much that you can’t see avarice for what it is?

Report for aggressive behavior. Me trying to be reasonable, but i'm a bootlicker and fanboys because i said that no one is forcing you to spend a single penny on MTX and not a single thing in a game is tied to MTX.

 

[Salesman]

That’s bad faith Whatabout-ism.

It is not whatabout-ism. Why you didn't complained for exact same thing in GTS few years ago? More grinding, rare cars were expensive. It is a simple question. Mind you that players were pissed about reduced credit awards in GT7 almost 2 months ago, not because MTX.

 

[fiendcode]

If so what, why are you complaining now, but not few years ago when GTS was active???

Sport was an experiment in modeling (both in game and price structures). This is the mainline series. I also believe nothing in Sport's MTX was as egregious as the high priced GT7 models we've been seeing.

Not many complained about the insane grind in MH Frontier either but if that grind was present in World or Rise, much less even worse, there'd be endless complaints. Different expectations for different things.

 

[MysticGon]

Grind was worse in GTS and no one complained.

People did complain. People also complained about MTXs in Forza Motorsport 7 or just about any premium game that has them.

 

[Salesman]

Sport was an experiment in modeling (both in game and price structures). This is the mainline series. I also believe nothing in Sport's MTX was as egregious as the high priced GT7 models we've been seeing.

Not many complained about the insane grind in MH Frontier either but if that grind was present in World or Rise, much less even worse, there'd be endless complaints. Different expectations for different things.

Rare cars in GTS were also very expensive just like in GT7. Also, the most expensive cars were not in MTX. I know there are 3 cars with 20 mil. in GTS just like in GT7 i think. And therefore, there was more grinding in GTS

 

[Salesman]

People did complain. People also complained about MTXs in Forza Motorsport 7 or just about any premium game that has them.

This is about GTS, not about Forza. Please provide any link or bigger gaming outlet who said anything about it. I know that people complained how GTS was barebones, but not about credit rewards and grinding in GTS

 

[Old sorta fan]

Report for aggressive behavior. Me trying to be reasonable, but i'm a bootlicker and fanboys because i said that no one is forcing you to spend a single penny on MTX and not a single thing in a game is tied to MTX.

Bad faith troll. You baited me and now you are reporting me. I cited multiple sources why MTX are exploitative and you report me for proving you wrong.

I’ll call it even and move on if you do so too.

Anyway, I don’t want to get banned so I quit this thread. I like this forum and wish to continue to post here.

I’ll start a new thread for anyone who wants to talk.

 

[Astrogamer]

Rare cars in GTS were also very expensive just like in GT7. Also, the most expensive cars were not in MTX. If i'm not wrong, prices are very similar between the two. I know there are 3 cars with 20 mil. in GTS just like in GT7. And therefore, there was more grinding in GTS

The problem is more the microtransaction than just grinding. Grinding is annoying but if there isn't MTX for it, it isn't that offensive. Also, there was really easy ways to grind for credits in Sport that didn't require you to be consistently good at the game whereas if you want to grind at a similar level in GT7, you need to retry the same race and actively compete.

 

[fiendcode]

Complaining about console MTX is as old as cosmetic Horse Armor.

 

[Old sorta fan]

Complaining about console MTX is as old as cosmetic Horse Armor.

I tried to have a discussion about how it affects business but that attempt at conversation is dead.

Mods, am I able to close a thread?

 

[Salesman]

Bad faith troll. You baited me and now you are reporting me. I cited multiple sources why MTX are exploitative and you report me for proving you wrong.

I’ll call it even and move on if you do so too.

Anyway, I don’t want to get banned so I quit this thread. I like this forum and wish to continue to post here.

I’ll start a new thread for anyone who wants to talk.

I was very specific and why i've reported you. I've qouted very specific reply of yours. It is not because you've provided me some linksand try to prove me wrong. LOL There is no need to spin it.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

I tried to have a discussion about how it affects business but that attempt at conversation is dead.

Mods, am I able to close a thread?

You’d have to report your own thread and request a close.

 

[Salesman]

The problem is more the microtransaction than just grinding. Grinding is annoying but if there isn't MTX for it, it isn't that offensive. Also, there was really easy ways to grind for credits in Sport that didn't require you to be consistently good at the game whereas if you want to grind at a similar level in GT7, you need to retry the same race and actively compete.

Grinding is much more easier in GT7 than in GTS. I know, because i drove over 700 races for grinding in GTS. There is very specific one way and one track to get a decent credits in GTS. In GT7 you have multiple ways. Not like in GTS, like you said for GT7, where you need to retry the same race and actively compete.

 

[MysticGon]

This is about GTS, not about Forza. Please provide any link or bigger gaming outlet who said anything about it. I know that people complained how GTS was barebones, but not about credit rewards and grinding in GTS

I wasn't talking about bigger gaming outlets.

 

[Salesman]

I wasn't talking about bigger gaming outlets.

So, no one complained and i didn't create any backslash just like it was for reduced reward credits in GT7.

 

[MysticGon]

So, no one complained and i didn't create any backslash just like it was for reduced reward credits in GT7.

Bigger gaming outlet =/= everyone. They have nor ever will speak for everyone.

 

[Salesman]

Bigger gaming outlet =/= everyone. They have nor ever will speak for everyone.

Not one outlet, more of them, just like it was for reduced credit awards for GT7 and for the MTX and loot boxes in FM7 or just like it was for Star Wars Battlefront 2. Fans complained, created a huge backslash followed also by gaming outlets

 

[fiendcode]

From my understanding part of the complaints about GT7's grind is the shallow single player content meaning lots of repeated smaller events for cash. GT has basically always been a long grind but it never had this much forced repetition. Basically the economy's out of step with the content, making for a far worse user experience.

Sport (being online focused) had plenty of credit exploits too to circumvent this (there's tons of videos on it) which GT7 seems to be lacking so far.

 

[Old sorta fan]

You’d have to report your own thread and request a close.

Thank you for the advice.

 

[fiendcode]

The thread's fine and it's a topical issue. Don't let a diehard superfan lowkey casting media conspiracy theories bully you into closing it or everyone else out of critical discussion.

 

[Jaysc]

OP has requested that the thread be locked. I will say there has been numerous reports in this thread so the mods will review them when they can.