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The stagnation/decline in the AAA console marketplace, its implications on the health of the industry, and what can be done to reverse the trend

The fact is the AAA space grew, and this has been happening for years. It's still growing now, AAA gaming now has more control and share of software with the PS5 and Series compared to last gen, where AAA is an even bigger percentage of software relative to hardware sales so far.

There is no stagnation, the problem with the industry is poor work conditions and the unsustainability of costs and a growth in outsourcing and lack of tools to make gem development easier and cheaper. The price of an AAA 15 years ago is now only about one rank above a small studio making an ambitious project TODAY, and 3 ranks above an indie game that is a proper new release and not imitating a game off the SNES or 2600. If there was stagnation it would actually be a (short) benefit on this front but there's not. We are seeing AAA go out of control and it's taking more and more marketshare in software 4 gens in a row in large jumps.

You make a good point about where even if there is AAA growth, it's not enough to catch up with the vastly higher AAA development costs. I disagree with the premise that there is AAA growth due to the declining number of releases and the search for growth in the use of predatory monetization schemes but that could be explained due to simple greed, too.

The AAA companies are also unsustainable in that it takes so long to make a game that an IP will wither and be forgotten about before its next release. Hence why Activision has an all-hands on deck approach to getting the annual CoD's out the door and canceled Tony Hawk 3+4 remake to get it done.
 
You make a good point about where even if there is AAA growth, it's not enough to catch up with the vastly higher AAA development costs. I disagree with the premise that there is AAA growth due to the declining number of releases and the search for growth in the use of predatory monetization schemes but that could be explained due to simple greed, too.

The AAA companies are also unsustainable in that it takes so long to make a game that an IP will wither and be forgotten about before its next release. Hence why Activision has an all-hands on deck approach to getting the annual CoD's out the door and canceled Tony Hawk 3+4 remake to get it done.

They cancelled Tony hawk because the last COD didn't meet expectations, and there is also the issue with Sledge hammer which they will/have restructured after they had to Switch to Treyarch in the past.

However, there is AAA growth, the number of releases being down doesn't make sense to me, the number of AAA releases are up from the same time last gen, unless you are including games now AAA under the same category. At least so far, we are seeing between new and cross-gen games more AAA releases for next gen consoles than ever, to the point where you will have a hard time finding alternative games when you go out shopping to find non-AAA games on the shelf if you are a PS5 or Series owner. AAA had never taken up such a high percentage of software sales compared to hardware sales before, and with AAA creating unsustainability not just for themselves, but dev costs for games that aren't AAA (as i said in my example AAA development 15 years ago is about the cost of development for a ambitious small studio now) I expect that without a fix we will soon see a dividing line between AAA and not AAA instead of the various categories we have now between mainstream developers of different sizes, small studios, start ups, and indies, because game development is reach a high cost to where anything with decent productions, tools, and budget will have to be AAA in most cases.

I expect this to happen this gen, either a new strategy will appear to try and sustain the industry a bit longer, or the industry is going to have to correct itself harshly.

And those are some real lowball numbers for PS5 and Xbox lol. The real number will probably end up around 30m higher for each.

I think if Series continues to grow (it was already outpacing 360 and One) I think it can pass the 360 easily as long as Philly works on the delays and prevent them from happening again in the future, the Xbox One suffered badly because of that, there were a number of cancellations too, I'm still shocked that Crack Down 3 was the only early announced 2014 first party title that actually came out.
 
Vicarious Visions was absorbed into Blizzard right after they completed THPS 1+2 remake. That's why a remake of THPS 3+4 was never developed.
 
They cancelled Tony hawk because the last COD didn't meet expectations, and there is also the issue with Sledge hammer which they will/have restructured after they had to Switch to Treyarch in the past.
Why should a company be running on such razor thin margins that one game that missed expectations (not bombed, just sold less than projected) should cause a panic that pulls resources away from smaller titles? Think about it. That's like if a new Star Wars movie grosses less than expected, Disney cancels the next kid's animated movie. You don't see that because Disney is a healthy company with a healthy customer base. That is the kind of behavior you see when a company is starting to see a cash crunch. That's turnaround management territory behavior. (Wikipedia has a solid intro to turnaround management: Turnaround management - Wikipedia)

However, there is AAA growth, the number of releases being down doesn't make sense to me, the number of AAA releases are up from the same time last gen, unless you are including games now AAA under the same category. At least so far, we are seeing between new and cross-gen games more AAA releases for next gen consoles than ever, to the point where you will have a hard time finding alternative games when you go out shopping to find non-AAA games on the shelf if you are a PS5 or Series owner.

Doesn't the fact that the publishers are afraid to let go of the PS4/XBone user base and go all-in on the PS5/XSeries user base 2 years in imply that something is wrong? Like the publishers are Wile E. Coyote looking down and seeing that the costs of developing for PS5/XSeries exclusively make them one bomb away from failure. Todd Howard said exactly that when talking about Bethesda selling to Microsoft.

AAA had never taken up such a high percentage of software sales compared to hardware sales before, and with AAA creating unsustainability not just for themselves, but dev costs for games that aren't AAA (as i said in my example AAA development 15 years ago is about the cost of development for a ambitious small studio now) I expect that without a fix we will soon see a dividing line between AAA and not AAA instead of the various categories we have now between mainstream developers of different sizes, small studios, start ups, and indies, because game development is reach a high cost to where anything with decent productions, tools, and budget will have to be AAA in most cases.

A healthy video game market has many different types of software for all different tastes and budgets. If you don't like Mario, here's Pokemon! If not Pokemon, here's Nier Automata, if not Nier, than here is a visual novel, if not the VN, here is Untitled Goose Game, if not that then here is Kirby or Astral Chain or Luigi's Mansion or Splatoon, or Monster Hunter or Xenoblade! The PSeries X has been getting mostly GAAS sports games, GAAS looter shooters, over the shoulder third party "cinematic" software, and PS4 ports. No platformers, no arcade sports (Volta mode in FIFA doesn't count because it's an under-cooked shiny thing meant to be a gateway to the Ultimate Team gambling mode), no western RPG's, no old-school FPS's, and on and on. When the developers release something non-AAA, it bombs. Take Soul Hackers 2 for example. That's because it now takes so long to make a PSeries X game and it's unbelievably expensive to do so.

The PSeries X audience has also been conditioned to think that anything that is not a grim-dark "realistic" title with lots of cutscenes and voice acting isn't worth the $70 price of admission. That is not sustainable because the costs and time needed to develop those titles have ballooned with the PSeries X. That's why you're seeing consolidation and genres being left to whither, just like during the PS3 business disaster that ballooned development costs back in the late 2000's!

I expect this to happen this gen, either a new strategy will appear to try and sustain the industry a bit longer, or the industry is going to have to correct itself harshly.
It already is correcting itself harshly: Sony Plans to Launch 10 PS5, PS4 Live Service Games by March 2026 | Push Square

If you like GAAS's, you're getting GAAS's! If you don't, well, you need to find a PC or Switch to get access to other non-GAAS video game software. AAA isn't going to give you much of anything else anymore. It's the premise of this entire thread: make more and more money from a slowly decreasing customer pool.

Edit - Here is yet another example of SIE going all-in on looter shooter GAAS's: Bungie Set to Revive the Marathon Series In A New Way - Insider Gaming (insider-gaming.com)

They're reviving an classic FPS IP from the 1990's as yet another GAAS looter shooter. This is despite the fact that the three Marathon games on the Macintosh were linear old-school FPS's with story elements told through text at in-game computer terminals. Marathon's feel was inherently about being isolated, whether due to not knowing who to trust (AI's gone crazy, aliens manufacturing hostile fake human robots) or exploring an abandoned place. It was never about teams getting loot. But, SIE wants GAAS's so you'll get GAAS's and like it! (while also defacing a beloved IP from my teenage years)
 
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Why should a company be running on such razor thin margins that one game that missed expectations (not bombed, just sold less than projected) should cause a panic that pulls resources away from smaller titles? Think about it. That's like if a new Star Wars movie grosses less than expected, Disney cancels the next kid's animated movie. You don't see that because Disney is a healthy company with a healthy customer base. That is the kind of behavior you see when a company is starting to see a cash crunch. That's turnaround management territory behavior.

The issue here is you're acting like this is new, Activision has been doing the rug pull on studios and other games for COD for years. Since at least MW3, and started being more aggressive about layoffs and shutting teams down and stalling projects that were already in development around Ghosts almost 20 years ago. Yet in both those instances they were a "healthy" company by most metrics, and were gaining on EA to replace them as biggest third party publisher, and did, while they were killing DJ/Band/Guitar hero and Skylanders into the ground.

I think the issue with COD, is that it is incredibly huge in the console space and pretty good on the PC too, which combined makes it one of the best selling franchise of all time, and the most successful yearly franchise of ANY entertainment media outside of games, and is likely to be (if it doesn't stop selling) in another 5 or 10 years on track to be the best selling game franchise of all time, that's how big it is, that's excluding the spin-offs and other releases just main entries. Activision since MW2 has never had any comparable success even if you cut the yearly releases since MW2 in half.

COD sold under expectations but still sold more than most other games and made a lot of money moving millions and millions of units with an incompetent team behind several entries, something Halo could never do and has suffered greatly for it, or Battlefield, or any other large FPS franchise.

Doesn't the fact that the publishers are afraid to let go of the PS4/XBone user base and go all-in on the PS5/XSeries user base 2 years in imply that something is wrong? Like the publishers are Wile E. Coyote looking down and seeing that the costs of developing for PS5/XSeries exclusively make them one bomb away from failure. Todd Howard said exactly that when talking about Bethesda selling to Microsoft.

As i said previously in the thread the costs are not sustainable. however the biggest issue isn't so much cross-gen is still going on, as that happened before with DC/ps2 and 360/ps3, but more so there is a great LACK of new hardware specific games being made for the new consoles (or even being made first on next gen and then scaled down, instead old gen games are being scaled up) and one big factor for why this is is because devs are hesitant.

They are waiting for the new engines, or are making next gen games in already existing new engines that arrived later than usual.

Because consoles are not really being made to lower dev costs or to provide much beyond a basic environment for development, only a few companies, many of which are on financing, are producing engines for devs to use or making proprietary engines to take advantage of the new hardware. You will also notice even on PC, there has been a lack of truly improved gaming experiences despite the wider availability of better specs. Development has become this much of a burden that devs have no choice but to wait unless they want to upscale their games for next gen knowing that it won't show off a clear difference in hardware leading to gamer complaints and bad review scores.

We are no longer in a situation where you can have many games like Gears of War, Project Gotham, Motorstorm, or Uncharted 1 within 2 years from launch showing early on that the new consoles are a necessity, there's not 20 soul caliburs, Tekken tag teams, Halo 1's, or Splinter cells to buy for the Series and PS5, there are maybe combined, a handful this gen so far.

What's worse that that handful unlike in gens past, isn't showing you something that's undeniably impressive to what came before, while making it obvious things will improve overtime, giving you a reason to invest short and long term on these consoles, especially for developers. But instead, we are seeing games that indicate to the average console owner that we are already reaching a ceiling on these new consoles and compromises already have to be made (performance mode on new consoles in the FIRST year of the new gen? Really?).

Most of the old engines can't be refined or improved upon to fix this, and most devs won't make an engine themselves, and even the ones that do will have to refine their engines for years to push the hardware enough to get around what clearly seem so far to be graphical and performance ceilings that usually aren't shown for early games in new generations (NES aside). Usually many of the new games show us an example of what's to come as the new generation continues, these days the new generation shows us that they may already be spend this early, that's how bad the transition has been.

If it wasn't for some devs (not many) taking the PS4 Pro and One X seriously, Series and PS5 games may be in even worse shape than they are now.

The PSeries X audience has also been conditioned to think that anything that is not a grim-dark "realistic" title with lots of cutscenes and voice acting isn't worth the $70 price of admission. That is not sustainable because the costs and time needed to develop those titles have ballooned with the PSeries X. That's why you're seeing consolidation and genres being left to whither, just like during the PS3 business disaster that ballooned development costs back in the late 2000's!

The Xbox side has been better on the variety issue a bit because of gamepass, being a bit less of an ass to third parties (Xbox is suddenly getting games no one though they would get form japan) and not buying into, for now, the $70 price tag.

However even so, it's only moderately better, and there are many people who have been indoctrinated into pushing the $70 price tag, to the point where it's used against gamepass because people claim with no evidence gamepass impacts game quality (ignoring games like GT7 and others because it's inconvenient) and that charging more is better for "game quality" yet we went through almost 10 years of many AAA games from any region all barely giving us finished games at $60, with missing content, content locked on the disc until you paid, all the gambling slots loot crates surpise drops trading card nonsense, releasing games that had little to no QA, and forcing the players to beta test so they can release 4 version of the same game at full price, and even missing modes that were advertised.

So I will not touch a game that is $70 because it's an insult to my intelligence and anyone defending it can go jump in a lake of BS.

As for your other point, as i said about AAA unsustainability before, AAA isn't only taking others with them as they start to collapse forcing dev costs across all types of games to go up, but also genre consolidation. the margins are getting insanely thin even with the upper budget level indies with adequate budgets, productions, tools, and graphical prowess.

An arcade racer like Ridge Racer or Rush has very little standing these days unless they can attract a sizable niche or group of loyal fans of these series to buy a game, and that would require these games to not put too much into them. But, if you want to make real profits you do have to risk small margins or a loss, and have to have marketing at a B-movie level at best, but it's too risky.

Could a new rush, outrun, blur, or Ridge racer sell at a goal of 3 million units today? What about 5? the answer is very likely no. Because of this, it would make more sense to make a game that would fall into the same popular categories as what AAA is doing, or you head into games as a service and hope your budget project catches on, but if it gets too popular you will have to sink AAA money into it to maintain it anyway. Those are the choices most devs have to deal with, either hope you can sell a certain amount for a regular release, or hope your GAAS takes off but doesn't become TOO popular so you don't have to increase your investment back into it ti maintain it's popularity, cutting your margins.

Microsoft canned Project Gotham for a reason, it wasn't because it wasn't selling, it was because a couple million units for an arcade racing game without many ways to incentivize the player to spend more money in-game wasn't enough to make the profits needed. The PGR games had a big budget and were getting grander, that had to stop. Forza was releasing every 2 years selling 2-3 million copies and getting people to buy accessories, it was more valuable, and it was part of a niche market (at that point) of racing sims, so it had long term viability without fear of competition interfering with revenue especially as a 360 exclusive. Once the Forza brand was established, they made a spin-off Forza to take the place that used to be held by PGR. Sega stopped Outrun after the two modern games (both exclusive to Xbox/360 I believe, maybe one was also on the PS2) because they weren't even selling 1 million units. It's why you saw entries for several franchises across genres take 4-5 years to come out because there were issues greenlighting sequels. You have the Yakuza team at Sega making a Gears of War clone for a reason. The idea was that Sega hoped that game would click (it didn't) even adding headset support for voice commands because they were following where the money was.

This was two gens ago when these events were happening, we are now at the tipping point.

It already is correcting itself harshly: Sony Plans to Launch 10 PS5, PS4 Live Service Games by March 2026 | Push Square

If you like GAAS's, you're getting GAAS's! If you don't, well, you need to find a PC or Switch to get access to other non-GAAS video game software. AAA isn't going to give you much of anything else anymore. It's the premise of this entire thread: make more and more money from a slowly decreasing customer pool.

Edit - Here is yet another example of SIE going all-in on looter shooter GAAS's: Bungie Set to Revive the Marathon Series In A New Way - Insider Gaming (insider-gaming.com)

They're reviving an classic FPS IP from the 1990's as yet another GAAS looter shooter. This is despite the fact that the three Marathon games on the Macintosh were linear old-school FPS's with story elements told through text at in-game computer terminals. Marathon's feel was inherently about being isolated, whether due to not knowing who to trust (AI's gone crazy, aliens manufacturing hostile fake human robots) or exploring an abandoned place. It was never about teams getting loot. But, SIE wants GAAS's so you'll get GAAS's and like it! (while also defacing a beloved IP from my teenage years)

Wouldn't say that yet, there are still devs who aren't moving on the GAAS model or are limiting it. Even Microsoft isn't going all in on it like Sony is despite "gaming journalists" acting as if they are. It just failed with their biggest franchise, and Microsoft has found success with some medium and large non-GASS games with either partnerships or through gamepass.

I would argue gamepass may actually keep Microsoft from going all in on GAAS and is a blessing (for them) in disguise, it may be an outlet where more non AAA games, even from sizable devs, will flourish. Many devs that aren't just small studios or lower have given credit to gamepass for engagement and revenue percentages elevating, and that ironically may help reduce the impact when this unsustainability hits its head.

Sony however is in a panic about what's going to happen in the long term, to the point in less than 3 years they turned back on several of their positions, have new strategies of releasing games on PC and mobile, and going all in on GAAS, $70 games, and have no plans to drop the price of the PS5. In fact, they just recently raised the price in several countries. Even Switch isn't dropping the price. Xbox however currently seems to be testing for an official drop, at least in select countries, for the Series consoles.
 
The issue here is you're acting like this is new, Activision has been doing the rug pull on studios and other games for COD for years. Since at least MW3, and started being more aggressive about layoffs and shutting teams down and stalling projects that were already in development around Ghosts almost 20 years ago. Yet in both those instances they were a "healthy" company by most metrics, and were gaining on EA to replace them as biggest third party publisher, and did, while they were killing DJ/Band/Guitar hero and Skylanders into the ground.

I think the issue with COD, is that it is incredibly huge in the console space and pretty good on the PC too, which combined makes it one of the best selling franchise of all time, and the most successful yearly franchise of ANY entertainment media outside of games, and is likely to be (if it doesn't stop selling) in another 5 or 10 years on track to be the best selling game franchise of all time, that's how big it is, that's excluding the spin-offs and other releases just main entries. Activision since MW2 has never had any comparable success even if you cut the yearly releases since MW2 in half.

COD sold under expectations but still sold more than most other games and made a lot of money moving millions and millions of units with an incompetent team behind several entries, something Halo could never do and has suffered greatly for it, or Battlefield, or any other large FPS franchise.



As i said previously in the thread the costs are not sustainable. however the biggest issue isn't so much cross-gen is still going on, as that happened before with DC/ps2 and 360/ps3, but more so there is a great LACK of new hardware specific games being made for the new consoles (or even being made first on next gen and then scaled down, instead old gen games are being scaled up) and one big factor for why this is is because devs are hesitant.

They are waiting for the new engines, or are making next gen games in already existing new engines that arrived later than usual.

Because consoles are not really being made to lower dev costs or to provide much beyond a basic environment for development, only a few companies, many of which are on financing, are producing engines for devs to use or making proprietary engines to take advantage of the new hardware. You will also notice even on PC, there has been a lack of truly improved gaming experiences despite the wider availability of better specs. Development has become this much of a burden that devs have no choice but to wait unless they want to upscale their games for next gen knowing that it won't show off a clear difference in hardware leading to gamer complaints and bad review scores.

We are no longer in a situation where you can have many games like Gears of War, Project Gotham, Motorstorm, or Uncharted 1 within 2 years from launch showing early on that the new consoles are a necessity, there's not 20 soul caliburs, Tekken tag teams, Halo 1's, or Splinter cells to buy for the Series and PS5, there are maybe combined, a handful this gen so far.

What's worse that that handful unlike in gens past, isn't showing you something that's undeniably impressive to what came before, while making it obvious things will improve overtime, giving you a reason to invest short and long term on these consoles, especially for developers. But instead, we are seeing games that indicate to the average console owner that we are already reaching a ceiling on these new consoles and compromises already have to be made (performance mode on new consoles in the FIRST year of the new gen? Really?).

Most of the old engines can't be refined or improved upon to fix this, and most devs won't make an engine themselves, and even the ones that do will have to refine their engines for years to push the hardware enough to get around what clearly seem so far to be graphical and performance ceilings that usually aren't shown for early games in new generations (NES aside). Usually many of the new games show us an example of what's to come as the new generation continues, these days the new generation shows us that they may already be spend this early, that's how bad the transition has been.

If it wasn't for some devs (not many) taking the PS4 Pro and One X seriously, Series and PS5 games may be in even worse shape than they are now.



The Xbox side has been better on the variety issue a bit because of gamepass, being a bit less of an ass to third parties (Xbox is suddenly getting games no one though they would get form japan) and not buying into, for now, the $70 price tag.

However even so, it's only moderately better, and there are many people who have been indoctrinated into pushing the $70 price tag, to the point where it's used against gamepass because people claim with no evidence gamepass impacts game quality (ignoring games like GT7 and others because it's inconvenient) and that charging more is better for "game quality" yet we went through almost 10 years of many AAA games from any region all barely giving us finished games at $60, with missing content, content locked on the disc until you paid, all the gambling slots loot crates surpise drops trading card nonsense, releasing games that had little to no QA, and forcing the players to beta test so they can release 4 version of the same game at full price, and even missing modes that were advertised.

So I will not touch a game that is $70 because it's an insult to my intelligence and anyone defending it can go jump in a lake of BS.

As for your other point, as i said about AAA unsustainability before, AAA isn't only taking others with them as they start to collapse forcing dev costs across all types of games to go up, but also genre consolidation. the margins are getting insanely thin even with the upper budget level indies with adequate budgets, productions, tools, and graphical prowess.

An arcade racer like Ridge Racer or Rush has very little standing these days unless they can attract a sizable niche or group of loyal fans of these series to buy a game, and that would require these games to not put too much into them. But, if you want to make real profits you do have to risk small margins or a loss, and have to have marketing at a B-movie level at best, but it's too risky.

Could a new rush, outrun, blur, or Ridge racer sell at a goal of 3 million units today? What about 5? the answer is very likely no. Because of this, it would make more sense to make a game that would fall into the same popular categories as what AAA is doing, or you head into games as a service and hope your budget project catches on, but if it gets too popular you will have to sink AAA money into it to maintain it anyway. Those are the choices most devs have to deal with, either hope you can sell a certain amount for a regular release, or hope your GAAS takes off but doesn't become TOO popular so you don't have to increase your investment back into it ti maintain it's popularity, cutting your margins.

Microsoft canned Project Gotham for a reason, it wasn't because it wasn't selling, it was because a couple million units for an arcade racing game without many ways to incentivize the player to spend more money in-game wasn't enough to make the profits needed. The PGR games had a big budget and were getting grander, that had to stop. Forza was releasing every 2 years selling 2-3 million copies and getting people to buy accessories, it was more valuable, and it was part of a niche market (at that point) of racing sims, so it had long term viability without fear of competition interfering with revenue especially as a 360 exclusive. Once the Forza brand was established, they made a spin-off Forza to take the place that used to be held by PGR. Sega stopped Outrun after the two modern games (both exclusive to Xbox/360 I believe, maybe one was also on the PS2) because they weren't even selling 1 million units. It's why you saw entries for several franchises across genres take 4-5 years to come out because there were issues greenlighting sequels. You have the Yakuza team at Sega making a Gears of War clone for a reason. The idea was that Sega hoped that game would click (it didn't) even adding headset support for voice commands because they were following where the money was.

This was two gens ago when these events were happening, we are now at the tipping point.



Wouldn't say that yet, there are still devs who aren't moving on the GAAS model or are limiting it. Even Microsoft isn't going all in on it like Sony is despite "gaming journalists" acting as if they are. It just failed with their biggest franchise, and Microsoft has found success with some medium and large non-GASS games with either partnerships or through gamepass.

I would argue gamepass may actually keep Microsoft from going all in on GAAS and is a blessing (for them) in disguise, it may be an outlet where more non AAA games, even from sizable devs, will flourish. Many devs that aren't just small studios or lower have given credit to gamepass for engagement and revenue percentages elevating, and that ironically may help reduce the impact when this unsustainability hits its head.

Sony however is in a panic about what's going to happen in the long term, to the point in less than 3 years they turned back on several of their positions, have new strategies of releasing games on PC and mobile, and going all in on GAAS, $70 games, and have no plans to drop the price of the PS5. In fact, they just recently raised the price in several countries. Even Switch isn't dropping the price. Xbox however currently seems to be testing for an official drop, at least in select countries, for the Series consoles.
You make a lot of good points. I’m less bullish on Gamepass as I don’t see how it becomes cash flow positive with all the nonstop money hats and being unable to increase prices (just like Peacock, Netflix, Disney+ etc on the TV side) but that’s Microsoft’s problem, not mine. The only reason why it has got any Japanese third party support is due to them paying for it. Nothing wrong with that. It’s just that even a far-signed, deep-pocketed company like Microsoft will eventually want some positive cash flows to make up their investments. Or not, maybe they’re already satisfied because Gamepass contributed to Google failing and burning their bridges to the market.

I am having a hard time seeing how Microsoft will turn the corner on getting enough content out to compete with the Switch. They’re currently a more consumer friendly PS5. When you’re Pepsi to PlayStation’s Coke, you need to differentiate yourself more. Halo is now an afterthought of an IP. Maybe when COD becomes exclusive that’ll be the differentiator? I’m just not seeing how they’re getting there, yet.
 
You make a lot of good points. I’m less bullish on Gamepass as I don’t see how it becomes cash flow positive with all the nonstop money hats and being unable to increase prices (just like Peacock, Netflix, Disney+ etc on the TV side) but that’s Microsoft’s problem, not mine. The only reason why it has got any Japanese third party support is due to them paying for it. Nothing wrong with that. It’s just that even a far-signed, deep-pocketed company like Microsoft will eventually want some positive cash flows to make up their investments. Or not, maybe they’re already satisfied because Gamepass contributed to Google failing and burning their bridges to the market.

I am having a hard time seeing how Microsoft will turn the corner on getting enough content out to compete with the Switch. They’re currently a more consumer friendly PS5. When you’re Pepsi to PlayStation’s Coke, you need to differentiate yourself more. Halo is now an afterthought of an IP. Maybe when COD becomes exclusive that’ll be the differentiator? I’m just not seeing how they’re getting there, yet.

Problem is your making the assumptions that every game on gamepass or even most of them if they decided to join are moneyhats and that's not the case, and in some instances MS is paying less than Sony for the same game to be on gamepass longer, than Sony pays for a partnership, or to put the same game on PSN.

If anything the eventual issue of cash flow being an issue will probably impact Sony first before Microsoft, but i will say that both as the gen goes on and the services are more in demand and need to become bigger, both companies are going to eventually have to settle for a change in strategy since at that point it will become an issue for more than one reason.

Microsoft has content though, I'm not sure what you mean by that, Microsoft isn't even competing with the Switch. The only reason why it seems like they are selling faster than ever right now without a "differentiator" is because there have been cancellations and game delays, once that's been resolved and MS with their large numbers of studios are able to have a yearly steady flow of releases month to month which was supposed to happen this year, than it will be less skepticism on the growth.
 
@Phantom Thief I want to thank you again for this thread. I thought about what you wrote after recent layoffs. It is a topic that I never really considered before your write up, but you called it out before a lot of industry experts started to talk about the stagnant console market. Now more than ever it is clear that the home console market and AAA game development is not sustainable. Where the industry goes from here will be very interesting, and a little scary.


Mods: I apologize if bumping this thread is unwanted. I just wanted to bring the subject back to life and give credit where it is due.
 
I gotta wonder with Sony now potentially doing day and date on PC within the next couple years. I gotta wonder if they will reach the kind of growths they want? Because there is some overlap of people that have both a gaming PC and a PS5. So what happens if the growth from PC+Playstation still can't keep up with these ballooning budgets? Things would still look very dicey for Playstation's future.
 
@Phantom Thief I want to thank you again for this thread. I thought about what you wrote after recent layoffs. It is a topic that I never really considered before your write up, but you called it out before a lot of industry experts started to talk about the stagnant console market. Now more than ever it is clear that the home console market and AAA game development is not sustainable. Where the industry goes from here will be very interesting, and a little scary.


Mods: I apologize if bumping this thread is unwanted. I just wanted to bring the subject back to life and give credit where it is due.
Thank you for bumping it. This topic is more relevant than ever as the AAA’s have been priced out of the market with the PS5 development costs and are now in survival mode. Laying off staff is cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face. Who is going to develop the next hit game?
 
I will be honest, outside of WoW xpacs and Diablo 3/4 I haven’t played a single « aaa game » since Halo 3 maybe? There’s something about the term that just turns me off I guess.

I don’t consider most of Nintendo’s output to fit the AAA bill and since the end of the PS2 era, I haven’t played AAA jrpgs (or I don’t categorize them as such anyway) as I tend to prefer the more traditional 16/32 bits kind
 
@Aostia82 Willing to discuss here, but maybe you'll want to say your piece about the Tales of Arise vs Xenoblade 3-debate first to kick it off? ;>
 

Development costs are now 10 times more expensive than in the 90's and more than double or nearly triple the cost of Tekken 7. Even the Fight Lounge servers are costly to maintain. In the past there weren't so many specs and there wasn't online. Plus they didn't have such high resolution and high definition. Now, So many people want the game to run and be supported for a long time. It costs money to continually update the game for that reason. However, he probably only keeps good memories of the old games he experienced as a boy and does not pay attention to these changing times and increasing costs. The economic situation and everything else is changing. If we simply do nothing as he suggests, the game will simply stop running in a few months. I think that is what he wants. So there is no point in talking to him about these realities. He wants us to stop economic activity and stop updating and supporting the game.
Saw this on Era & thought it would be appropriate to add to the ongoing issues with high-end game development.

Edit:
And then for fun we see what companies try to say to justify these products if they fail
Today, Ubisoft announced the release of Skull and Bones' first ever season, "Raging Tides", available for free worldwide. Since launch, Skull and Bones has achieved record player engagement, with over four hours of average daily playtime, the second highest ever at Ubisoft.
 
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@Aostia82 Willing to discuss here, but maybe you'll want to say your piece about the Tales of Arise vs Xenoblade 3-debate first to kick it off? ;>



Saw this on Era & thought it would be appropriate to add to the ongoing issues with high-end game development.



yes, these two tidbits are pretty significant imho
I'd like to have more time to go deeper into this topic (unfrotunately today is not the right day ;( ) but surely the continuous push toward high-end graphics TO ME is not the only problem/issue we are seeing this industry contraction right now, BUT is at least something meaningful

I know my avatar and my post history would drive many readers to see my opinion on development budget as biased, but trust me (I'm an engineer!!! - jokin', not true!) it's not

trust-me-engineer.png


But it is pretty evident that Nintendo's way of managing budget development is pretty different from many other companies
this is obviously due also to their tech-approach, that since the Wii days has NOT be to be involved in a continuous "master race" toward high-end graphic fidelity and/or raw power

this has still caused development budgets to increase, gen after gen, but in an apparent more sustainable way, without the need to acquire big teams, going into an hire spree, keep the growth somehow organic

can we all agree on these points? probably yes

on the other hand, exactly speaking about some of Harada's efforts (just because he rightly rised in that tweet the development costs increase trajectory) I wonder if/how much budgets for the infamous Xenoblade vs Tales of game can be useful for this analysis

first of all:

- are those 2 games budgets comparable? or, as we suspect, is Arise's budget way higher than Xenoblade's?
- is Arise's budget way higher just because of the multiplatform approach vs Xenoblade having only a Switch SKU?
- if Arise's budget is way higher than Xenoblade's one not only due to this but also because of its HIGH-END-TECH approach, I'd like to discuss about the real topic


is Arise a WAY MORE ADVANCED game than Xenoblade 2/3?
is it for the mass market at a point that justifies a possible way higher development budget?


Tales of Arise can be also substituted by Dragon Quest X S, for example, developed specifically for the Switch hardware (right?), initially
and in this caseI think that the budget vs result could even be more interesting

Xeboblade 3 obviously has less advanced elements (the polycount I suspect? the texture pack, of course? the resolution output?) but also

- a very interesting solution for dynamic resolution (so we can ditch the Xenoblade 2 resolution issue out of this topic)
- a very big and almost open world (there are few loading between few areas of the game; each area is very big and detailed, rich of elements and eye-catching - apart from personal tastes and so on of course)
- the scope of the game, objectively I think? - can be considered bigger than DQXS or Tales of Arise, where areas are way smaller, often built around the "corridor" concept, less populated of animals, even sometimes with less foliage and so on

I honestly struggles to see Arise as a generational leap over Xenoblade 3, in terms of size, scope, beauty and so on...apart from the obvious higher resolution and light effects, that honestly I struggle to see as game-changing and leading to a vastly bigger success compared to a possible Xenoblade-like Arise (developed with smaller budget?)

at least in terms of mass market appeal

Please note that Arise with its 3mil milestone (even if at a discounted price, going by its price history on Deku Deals) is successfull so don't take it as a critic toward Arise

nor tunr this into a Xeno vs Arise post or topic

the topic is: are we sure it's absolutely necessary to push THAT much into higher tech, bigger dev teams to get such (to me) a similar result to the eye that is leading to somehow similar sales (Xenoblade 2 being esclusive sold 2.4mil I think - with Arise being at 3 with discounts and 4 SKU, right?)

Now, I'm ready to be teared apart from everyone :D
 
I definitely think a lot of publishers are spending 2-3x more on games to make them 5-10% better.

Studios like Monolith Soft, Ryu Ga Gotoku, Platinum Games, and many other medium sized teams are masters of avoiding this type of mistake, they know what’s worth spending the time, money, and resources on and what’s better off being left alone.
 
I definitely think a lot of publishers are spending 2-3x more on games to make them 5-10% better.

Studios like Monolith Soft, Ryu Ga Gotoku, Platinum Games, and many other medium sized teams are masters of avoiding this type of mistake, they know what’s worth spending the time, money, and resources on and what’s better off being left alone.

damn.
you summarized my wallpost in few words and way better
lol
 
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yes, these two tidbits are pretty significant imho
I'd like to have more time to go deeper into this topic (unfrotunately today is not the right day ;( ) but surely the continuous push toward high-end graphics TO ME is not the only problem/issue we are seeing this industry contraction right now, BUT is at least something meaningful

I know my avatar and my post history would drive many readers to see my opinion on development budget as biased, but trust me (I'm an engineer!!! - jokin', not true!) it's not

trust-me-engineer.png


But it is pretty evident that Nintendo's way of managing budget development is pretty different from many other companies
this is obviously due also to their tech-approach, that since the Wii days has NOT be to be involved in a continuous "master race" toward high-end graphic fidelity and/or raw power

this has still caused development budgets to increase, gen after gen, but in an apparent more sustainable way, without the need to acquire big teams, going into an hire spree, keep the growth somehow organic

can we all agree on these points? probably yes

on the other hand, exactly speaking about some of Harada's efforts (just because he rightly rised in that tweet the development costs increase trajectory) I wonder if/how much budgets for the infamous Xenoblade vs Tales of game can be useful for this analysis

first of all:

- are those 2 games budgets comparable? or, as we suspect, is Arise's budget way higher than Xenoblade's?
- is Arise's budget way higher just because of the multiplatform approach vs Xenoblade having only a Switch SKU?
- if Arise's budget is way higher than Xenoblade's one not only due to this but also because of its HIGH-END-TECH approach, I'd like to discuss about the real topic


is Arise a WAY MORE ADVANCED game than Xenoblade 2/3?
is it for the mass market at a point that justifies a possible way higher development budget?


Tales of Arise can be also substituted by Dragon Quest X S, for example, developed specifically for the Switch hardware (right?), initially
and in this caseI think that the budget vs result could even be more interesting

Xeboblade 3 obviously has less advanced elements (the polycount I suspect? the texture pack, of course? the resolution output?) but also

- a very interesting solution for dynamic resolution (so we can ditch the Xenoblade 2 resolution issue out of this topic)
- a very big and almost open world (there are few loading between few areas of the game; each area is very big and detailed, rich of elements and eye-catching - apart from personal tastes and so on of course)
- the scope of the game, objectively I think? - can be considered bigger than DQXS or Tales of Arise, where areas are way smaller, often built around the "corridor" concept, less populated of animals, even sometimes with less foliage and so on

I honestly struggles to see Arise as a generational leap over Xenoblade 3, in terms of size, scope, beauty and so on...apart from the obvious higher resolution and light effects, that honestly I struggle to see as game-changing and leading to a vastly bigger success compared to a possible Xenoblade-like Arise (developed with smaller budget?)

at least in terms of mass market appeal

Please note that Arise with its 3mil milestone (even if at a discounted price, going by its price history on Deku Deals) is successfull so don't take it as a critic toward Arise

nor tunr this into a Xeno vs Arise post or topic

the topic is: are we sure it's absolutely necessary to push THAT much into higher tech, bigger dev teams to get such (to me) a similar result to the eye that is leading to somehow similar sales (Xenoblade 2 being esclusive sold 2.4mil I think - with Arise being at 3 with discounts and 4 SKU, right?)

Now, I'm ready to be teared apart from everyone :D
Really interesting take and, just like you, I'm busy right now, some family event starting in less then 40 minutes. I'll answer on the core topic in-depth later or tomorrow, but let me get out of my system one thing: I struggle to not see XB3 as a generational leap over ToA. The latter looks so unimpressive, both graphically and in terms of presentation/cutscene direction. After 100%ing ToA's last week, I went back and watched some XB3 and my opinion remains. That's why I'm confused where Harada put all that AAA-budget. Did he just spend it on marketing? Because it's not visible in the game.

Anyway, so much for the XB3vsToA, deeper discussion later then :p

@ArkhamFantasy Good point. I'd also add developers like Yoko Taro and his Nier Automata to your list, at least I assume it was made on an AA-budget, but it still oozes quality.
 
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Studios like Monolith Soft, Ryu Ga Gotoku, Platinum Games, and many other medium sized teams are masters of avoiding this type of mistake, they know what’s worth spending the time, money, and resources on and what’s better off being left alone.
They don't really get much of a choice, I don't know about Monolith Soft, Ryu Ga Gotoku, but at Platinum Games, the company has been through several downturns in it's relatively short history. It's the kind of thing that makes you mindful, of time and budget. It's why for a long while, they were doing licensed games and searching for investor funding.... PG has been to points where they had to keep the lights on. For any company, that point is near death and no-one wants to revisit it.
 
Rockstar Games, a division of Take-Two Interactive Software Inc., will ask employees to return to the office five days a week beginning in April as the video-game maker enters the final stages of development on its next game, the hotly anticipated Grand Theft Auto VI.

In an email to staff on Wednesday reviewed by Bloomberg, Rockstar Head of Publishing Jenn Kolbe said the decision was made for productivity and security reasons. The company has faced several security breaches including a massive dump of early footage from the new Grand Theft Auto and an early trailer that leaked in December.
The layoffs before the layoffs.

Followed by actual layoffs
Staff at Star Citizen creator Cloud Imperium Games (CIG) have reportedly been laid off. These cuts, said ex-Turbulent producer Annie Bouffard, were "mass layoffs" excused as staff relocation.

Per MassivelyOP, a number of alpha players on the space game learned several lead staff were no longer at the studio. These exits include live game director Todd Papy, who exited in January.

Bouffard claimed "very few" of the staff, Papy included, were able (or willing) to move to Manchester, UK. The studio revealed its new UK office in late 2021.
In her (translated) post, Bouffard called Cloud Imperium a "highly toxic company." She claimed to have been "gaslighted" over concerns about the layoffs, and that her boss hadn't spoken to her in months.

"At my annual evaluation...we spent an hour on my character and my 'negativity,'" she wrote. "I was mocked in a condescending way when I said that what mattered to me was the well-being of my teams."
 
I definitely think a lot of publishers are spending 2-3x more on games to make them 5-10% better.
This does indeed feel like the problem precisely. I don't have a lot of patience for publisher executive tears about games costing more when the money they're pouring in offers minimal consumer value.
Plus, as I pointed out yesterday in another thread, these comments leave out key facts, like how it mentions nothing about how revenue being earned has increased over time, as well. To quote myself:
He used Tekken as an example, so... Tekken went from selling ~2mil worldwide to selling 11.8mil with Tekken 7. And when you consider DLC revenue (that didn't used to exist) overtop standard sales, y'know, pretty sure revenue has kept great pace with costs, the issue is when you're trying to spend that kind of money on something you don't know will be a sales success, the room for failure has shrunk.
That last point I think is important.

I'd say around half or more of "AAA" IPs with staying power never even started as "AAA" IPs as we think of them today. They were created in eras of gaming where the technical ceiling made for very little distance between titles visually without employing some trickery (like fixed cameras on pre-rendered backdrops), so success or failure was around artistry, marketing, strong game mechanics and a bit of luck. And there was room for failure and so there was also room for experimentation, which led to either the birth or the massive popularity and proliferation of entire genres.

Even in the West, this holds true. Call of Duty, Grand Theft Auto, Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Diablo... all these started in the late 90s to early 2000s and then built themselves up through more modest budgets that scaled up gradually and with consistent re-investment from prior success. In the past, the technical barriers were a hard limit on that gradual scaling up, but that gradual pace is part of how they've had the staying power they've had. The same is also true (albeit more sporadically) with franchises introduced in the PS3/360 era.

New IPs deserve the chance to build an audience, and you're not going to get there when the budget demands sales it may not achieve, it feels wasteful. I'm not suggesting starting with 2D pixel art or something, but ambition should be scaled back for new IPs as much as possible, to allow for the same trajectory as most of the established IPs were granted in the past.
 
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A Wildlife Studios spokesperson has told Game Developer the studio had laid off 21 percent of its workforce.

"Today, Wildlife Studios made the difficult decision of parting ways with 21 percent (133 people) of our employees amidst an organization-wide restructure," reads a statement. "We thank those leaving for their contributions and we will be providing them assistance during this period of change. While we are focused on creating a smaller and more agile company, our investment in new games remains unaffected."
The company previously laid off around 300 staff in 2022, before making another 13 percent workforce reduction in 2023 (thanks Bloomberg Linea).
 
For better or worse, it will be fascinating to see where the industry will be in 10-15 years, since even with all of these layoffs it will take a while for all these changes and shakeups to take shape.
 
Let's discuss!

the topic is: are we sure it's absolutely necessary to push THAT much into higher tech, bigger dev teams to get such (to me) a similar result to the eye that is leading to somehow similar sales (Xenoblade 2 being esclusive sold 2.4mil I think - with Arise being at 3 with discounts and 4 SKU, right?)

To give my final answer immediately: No. It's absolutely not necessary.

As for the why, I have 3 arguments/examples that I'd like to detail:

1.) Success of Swich and its games. That's not directly pertaining to the "similar result" part, Aostia, I know. However, it's proof that there's over a hundred million of people out there who do NOT care about high end graphics, 4K or 60fps (or more fps, one of the biggest clownery of all times, convincing the mainstream that more than 60fps are necessary, because suddenly we're all pro-gamers, lol). So many people happily playing their 720p30fps games with graphics that are a mix of Xbox 360 Plus-power with modern engine effects. Fwiw, I could also include the fact that so many people on Steam play old ass games because they're still great. I could also talk about HD-2D-games or all the pixel art-games that look anything but "high end".

2.) Now as for the "similar results" part: How many times have I seen people online boast about how great some old GameCube, PS2, Wii, or on the newer side even Switch, game looks when emulated on a PC! Clearly, these people are fine with lesser graphics as long as the resolution and framerate gives a clean, smooth experience. And if that's the case, why the heck are developers wasting so much time and money in adding all these, ultimately, meaningless details in their games? Details that cause the game worlds to look so busy that every 2nd game requires a "detective mode" to figure out where some interactive object is placed. Heck, I quickly thought about starting up Endless Ocean 1 via emulator (I own the game, it's legal, Nintendo!), but then decided not to, because Endless Ocean Luminous likely won't look more impressive than what an HD-rendered Endless Ocean 1 would look, thus spoiling me the new game.

Great games will be great games, regardless of some ultradetailed graphics, and most of the time, even older games will look fantastic when rendered FOR FREE in HD and with 60fps. Imagine if Nintendo officially released "Super Smash Bros. Melee HD-Edition", it'd sell millions despite having less detailed graphcs than Ultimate. And I keep coming back to Mass Effect: ME2 and ME3 still look fine, especially on PC. These are Xbox 360-games. If developers chose to go back to that, perfectly fine, level of graphical fidelity, added the FREE modern effects that come with Unreal Engine 5, and simply focused on telling GREAT STORIES, LOTS OF PLAYER CHOICE and just making a great game, I cannot imagine anyone trashing the game - except for instigating, clickbaiting gaming websites that want to stir up shit for their own personal gain. "Has Bioware given up? Mass Effect 4 looks like a 2005-Game!". Bad publicity is the only thing that could ruin such going-back-to-reasonable-levels-of-development. It would be the job of good gaming journalists to set that straight and sharply attack any colleagues that try to stir up shit. Anyway, people have no issue with lesser graphics, we can witness it all the time.

3.) And then we just need to look at the most popular games, really. Fortnite, a simple cartoonish shooter. Minecraft, a game so ugly even I don't wanna play it, lol. Or GTA5, an ancient open world-title. How many releases did Skyrim have and always remained popular? Counterstrike is an eternal shooter at this point. These are PC-games for the most part, btw, so games played on these fancy, most-powerful machines.


Conclusion (for now): Imo, clearly the issue isn't gamers at large. Most of us want games that look reasonably good, but most of the time that means that a game looks clean, runs smooth and beyond that is FUN. Most of us don't count how much foliage is displayed in Witcher 3, what the polycount of Batman's belt is or whether there's RayTracing or not. No matter how much better graphics could be: These are always "nice to have", but not must-haves. A pretty game is pretty, even if doesn't boast the highest level of current year-technology. So why is there nevertheless this common belief that games MUST have the best graphics? This might be controversial to some, but I think it's the fault of Sony and MS and those 3rd-party publishers that heavily rely on their consoles. For decades, MS and Sony have relied on "we have the best graphics on our platform!"-marketing (and for the record: So did Nintendo and Sega, before they bowed out, for different reasons) and gamers, made of an overall rather young demographic, are impressionable enough to start believing that marketing eventually and thinking graphics THAT important. The irony here is that graphics are THAT important; for MS and Sony. For nobody else. Take away graphics and suddenly MS and Sony would have to compete with Nintendo on a level field purely on game-ideas. Take away graphics and PC would demand the undisputed graphics-crown. It's all marketing, it's all "keeping up an illusion". Which brings us back to Harada and Tales of Arise: Nothing about Tales of Arise is graphically impressive when one has already played a jrpg like Xenoblade 3. Maybe Arise boasts a higher polycount on its character models and other subtle details, but what the eye sees has XB3 win everywhere: bigger world, no load times, better animations, better cutscenes (movie quality), a more interactive world, a larger party, sharper, more beautiful environments unlike Arise's narrow areas with that weird artsy texture filter. The list could go on, the point remains that for all the marketing from Bandai Namco and Harada, Arise is not that AAA-premium experience compared to a game that, going by past IB discussions, had a fraction of its development budget. And that is where it's revealed how much of the whole graphics-bs is simply a tool for marketing a game. Harada so badly wants to be part of the AAA-clique that he marketed his games as that, despite them not being that. But some people will eventually believe him and that creates a certain expectation that this is necessary. That being AAA, that being "not possible on Switch", is a requirement for a game to be good. Harada and Bandai Namco are but one such example, but one that's tangible and easy to understand. MS and Sony have nurtured an entire industry that holds Harada's believes, but goes beyond words and actually DEMANDS that 3rd-party publishers inject millions upon millions of Dollars into massive projects so that they feature graphics that match the marketing promise of MS's and Sony's. Did gamers demand those graphics? Nah, not at first. At some point, they started demanding it, yeah. But, and I want to come to an end for now with this, there's absolutely the option to go back from where we're at. Nintendo made that step back with the Wii. They became the laughing stock for many, ridiculed on top of the already existing "kiddy console" image they had before that. And now they're dominating Japan and are competing well with everyone else on a worldwide stage. Video games can be beautiful without absurd budgets and bloated staff numbers that keep resulting in a toxic up-and-down of employing and firing people. I'm looking forward to the next 3D-Mario, but 0% of my excitement has to do with any "omg, I hope it looks like a Pixar-movie!!1" thoughts. I believe most gamers ultimately share this position of mine, we just need to convince the industry and its big players that we're not lying, sadlol.
 
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Make more teams with less headcount and release more games and take some risks and be consistent with your quality IP. I think a game like GTA should come out every 4 to 5 years. If you have succesfull live service games, keep them around forever or until they dry out but don't try to make 5 of them. I think cloud gaming will probably broaden console gaming further but until that is viable publishers need to be smart. There's just too much competition and not so many console sales.
 
But it is pretty evident that Nintendo's way of managing budget development is pretty different from many other companies
this is obviously due also to their tech-approach, that since the Wii days has NOT be to be involved in a continuous "master race" toward high-end graphic fidelity and/or raw power

this has still caused development budgets to increase, gen after gen, but in an apparent more sustainable way, without the need to acquire big teams, going into an hire spree, keep the growth somehow organic
Bit late to the party here. But I'm not sure if Nintendo's strategy is necessarily more sustainable than that of other publishers. Things are just going a lot slower.

Aside from budget priorities ("5-10% better game for 2-3x higher price"), Nintendo does need more complicated assets than 10 years ago: more detailed 3D models/rigs/animations, more detailed textures, etc. So even if a company decides not to spend an extravagant amount of time on assets, the baseline still increases.

I hope we'll reach a point where assets won't need to get more complicated than they currently are. There are diminishing returns on higher graphics resolutions, so we'll hit a ceiling there at some point (which is good imo).

But there's only so much you can do on the cost side of the equation. I think we need to look more at the income side. Players receive a lot more game now for their buck than 10 or 20 or 30 years ago. In other words: there has been a deflationary effect. How was this possible?

A part of the answer is technical specialisation. Every studio used to use custom engines, for example; now everyone uses third-party licensed engines.
Another effect is genre specialisation. Publishers have focused on the more lucrative genres with the biggest audiences.

But increasing the purchase price was a big obstacle. Publishers have done everything they can to postpone that moment through the introduction of all kinds of delayed purchase moments (DLC, battle passes, microtransactions, etc). This even resulted into free-to-play becoming a major business strategy. And this worked well. Until the market for multiplayer live service titles in the biggest genres was completely addressed and divided among the biggest titles. It has become super difficult to enter that market.

For titles without that live service element, your revenue per customer is limited to the upfront purchase price and the release of DLC, which was evolved into expansions.

A new problem for publishers is that the play value per dollar for those few major live service titles is much bigger than for any other product, and customers have grown accustomed to the few lucrative genres that the industry has been pushing for the last decade. Lots of people don't play shooters because they care so much about shooting, but because it's a nice and easy thing to do while socialising with friends.

In other words, I think we've entered a consolidation phase for player time.
The rest of the industry will have to take a step back and find a way to serve the smaller audiences in a way that's cheaper, find a way to upsell these smaller audiences more effectively, or ideally both.
 
Bit late to the party here. But I'm not sure if Nintendo's strategy is necessarily more sustainable than that of other publishers. Things are just going a lot slower.

Aside from budget priorities ("5-10% better game for 2-3x higher price"), Nintendo does need more complicated assets than 10 years ago: more detailed 3D models/rigs/animations, more detailed textures, etc. So even if a company decides not to spend an extravagant amount of time on assets, the baseline still increases.

I hope we'll reach a point where assets won't need to get more complicated than they currently are. There are diminishing returns on higher graphics resolutions, so we'll hit a ceiling there at some point (which is good imo).
These statements I bolded seem a bit at odds.

The final technical ceiling you mention is also not linear and thus neither are the budgets. Unless Nintendo (as one example) decides to radically change its art direction choices, the ceiling they're going to hit technically will be lower, as well, as less realistic art demands technically less to achieve a very appealing result before wandering into that "5-10% for 2-3x more money" issue that Nintendo rarely does. And they aren't the only developers who benefit this way, they're just the most consistent in making the choice of art direction that benefits from a lower technical ceiling. Once games that opt out of realism start getting into 4K and consistent 60fps, there's not that much further they can go to make their product look so much better than it already does that they don't just earn automatically from hardware advancements that also often result in less demanding workloads (like less time managing draw distances due to pop-in, as one example). In other words, you can wait out technology actually bringing some of the cost increases into a kind of equilibrium due to the labour you don't need in other areas of development anymore.

So long as Nintendo's production costs scale up slower than their revenue does, they're more than fine, and they definitely have been for the past 7 years. Also, they seem more than capable of making adjustments to their production budgets to fit very comfortably within their revenue intake (barring a massive collapse in platform interest like Wii U, anyways, but even then, they were able to cannibalize their work there and try to sell it again in a more favourable platform environment with minimal extra expense, so it more than evened out in the end anyways).

In other words, if they're profitable now, they're likely to still be profitable when they hit the upper limits that their art direction will reasonably permit or what is fiscally responsible to pursue.
 
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Bit late to the party here. But I'm not sure if Nintendo's strategy is necessarily more sustainable than that of other publishers. Things are just going a lot slower.
But that's the thing. Costs growing overtime isn't unsustainable, costs growing faster than revenue is.

When they saw dev costs skyrocketing for HD dev, they made the Wii and bet on the people who were fine with SD graphics while trying to expand their audience until HD dev was sustainable for them.

And if they needed to do it again, even freezing at Switch level scope/assets but at higher resolution and with RT* should keep them profitable for much longer than the Wii, long enough to try things and find a way.

* RT requires a lot less effort (thus cheaper) than baked lighting at the cost of being way heavier. Perfect for this hypothetical case where you would have plenty of headroom to make it prettier but don't want to increase costs.
 
If Nintendo is getting to the point where a Mario Party or Clubhouse Games is considered unsustainable while selling ~10mil, then something really wrong has happened. Which would necessitate a strategy rethink long before that point since signs would be cropping up sooner than results.
 
They made Wii when they saw GameCube sales.
Nintendo could not offer hardware as powerful at the same price as MS, since they couldn't survive bleeding billions of dollars for years by selling at big losses. PS2 sales encouraged Sony to try competing in power but at a premium, while, yes, the GC sales meant Nintendo couldn't fight at a premium either.

That's why they left the arms race, but the PS360 were 10~20 times stronger than the PS2/GC. They didn't have to make a console just sightly stronger than the GC. But they chose to use outdated architectures and keep at SD because then they wouldn't have to make new tools or spend a lot of time learning how to make HD games for a new architecture or hire en mass to keep up with the additional work. By doing that, they could maintain a solid output, with budgets which wouldn't require selling millions to profit, and they could also get some more profit from GC games through BC and cheap "New Play Control!" ports.

And with the Wii sales, they could have returned to the arms race, as they had the money to take losses on the hardware (in fact, the Wii U was sold at loss). But they still went with old architectures that they could program to faster and with full BC over getting to PS4 ballpark. And even after the Wii U massive failure, they apparently insisted on this, since there's data on GigaLeak suggesting they only were going to use a chip based on the Wii U's, and only switched to the Tegra X1 after the Tegra team made easy-to-program tools and APIs to replace their existing ones.
 
And with the Wii sales, they could have returned to the arms race, as they had the money to take losses on the hardware

And why would they do that? They successfully moved into the blue ocean and created new unique niche for themselves, where they can sell tons of software and feel great. They NEVER intended to come back into the arms race after Wii. And as we see now, when participants of the arms race are struggling hard, this decision greatly benefited Nintendo.
 
Nintendo:

a) makes AA games that are pure profit, like the aforementioned Mario Party
b) is incredible at asset reuse, IIRC there were some proofs that a lot of Mario Kart Wii (a multibazillion seller) reused character models from other Mario games on the system, I remember something about Toad in particular. Asset creation is THE driver of skyrocketing costs
c) still has digital as an avenue of growth for the next generation, especially considering physical cartridges are more expensive than bds (and therefore Nintendo has more to earn by the further shift to digital on Switch 2)
d) does not put all of their eggs in a single basket. Ignoring transition years like 2024, their strategy of having a constant stream of monthly games of different sizes reduces risk compared to Ubisoft's "If the next Assassin's Creed flops we are all going home".
e) owns its own key IPs
 
These statements I bolded seem a bit at odds.

The final technical ceiling you mention is also not linear and thus neither are the budgets. Unless Nintendo (as one example) decides to radically change its art direction choices, the ceiling they're going to hit technically will be lower, as well, as less realistic art demands technically less to achieve a very appealing result before wandering into that "5-10% for 2-3x more money" issue that Nintendo rarely does. And they aren't the only developers who benefit this way, they're just the most consistent in making the choice of art direction that benefits from a lower technical ceiling. Once games that opt out of realism start getting into 4K and consistent 60fps, there's not that much further they can go to make their product look so much better than it already does that they don't just earn automatically from hardware advancements that also often result in less demanding workloads (like less time managing draw distances due to pop-in, as one example). In other words, you can wait out technology actually bringing some of the cost increases into a kind of equilibrium due to the labour you don't need in other areas of development anymore.

So long as Nintendo's production costs scale up slower than their revenue does, they're more than fine, and they definitely have been for the past 7 years. Also, they seem more than capable of making adjustments to their production budgets to fit very comfortably within their revenue intake (barring a massive collapse in platform interest like Wii U, anyways, but even then, they were able to cannibalize their work there and try to sell it again in a more favourable platform environment with minimal extra expense, so it more than evened out in the end anyways).

In other words, if they're profitable now, they're likely to still be profitable when they hit the upper limits that their art direction will reasonably permit or what is fiscally responsible to pursue.
Its gonna be pretty tough to achieve that equilibrium, game costs scale up really fast really easy. Even a simple and content dry game like Mario Strikers now has to include online play, new characters, new stages, and future updates. This is because theres a pressure to exceed your previous games in not just graphics, but also in content and features. You dont have to be making Spider-Man or a cinematic game for your budget to balloon, Tekken 8 costs 3x as much as Tekken 7 too per Harada. If mainline Pokemon games start taking that one extra year they so desperately need for example, theres the increase in budget.

Its not impossible for Nintendo to achieve mind you, but it does sound extremely hard to keep up with consumer expectations on stronger hardware without increasing budgets.
 
However, it's proof that there's over a hundred million of people out there who do NOT care about high end graphics, 4K or 60fps (or more fps, one of the biggest clownery of all times, convincing the mainstream that more than 60fps are necessary, because suddenly we're all pro-gamers, lol).
I agree with you in general, but don't lump the push for higher framerates in with everything else. You don't need to be a pro gamer to feel the fluidity and better responsiveness, and higher framerates do not add much development costs, if at all. In fact, prioritizing framerate could lead to less expensive games as less complex visuals are easier to run at higher framerates.
 
Unsustainable development practices - the Thread.

Dev teams are burned out. Audiences are burning out.

Games are becoming more homogenous to make Dev easier, faster, safer, more economical.

Let's take the top 4 series on Playstation in the PS4->PS5 cycle.
  • Spider-Man
  • God of War
  • Horizon
  • Last of Us
These are each the same game. Different dressing, but very, very similar in game design from a play perspective. What distinguishes them are the atmosphere, some design elements, and of course the stories. They have far more in common than they have differences. The quality of these games is less about game design itself and more about the worlds you get to explore.

Contrast with Final Fantasy - games which feel very different *within the same series*. Usually they have unique game design to each one. Playing one is not learning to play the others. 7, 8, 9 are each very different in their RPG elements.

Looking down the pipeline on Insomniac development - these are the only games they are making. There are no experiments, no novel concepts. It's an IP mill.

This is a natural consequence of high risk, high cost development. You have less eggs, similar eggs in the same basket. No small passion projects. No experimentation. The only truly novel game we have had in the PS5 cycle has been Returnal - it was not a home run - now publishers/developers are scared to do new things.

The problem is that Playstation has nurtured their audience to expect a certain type of game at a certain quality. Sony devs are burning out on developing these games. At some point the next of these games is going to sell worse than the previous and when that happens, not if, when, Playstation will be in trouble. They are not growing because they are delivering the same game to the same audience, year after year.

To reverse this trend, you must reverse the expectations. You have to *change*. Change is very risky, but it is necessary. Best to change at the same time you hedge with these safe games. Develop smaller experiments. Do novel things. Attract a new audience. Sony - because their margins are so thin - doesn't have enough capital to experiment. They are currently risk-averse and are spending all their energy trying to maintain what they have.
 
Unsustainable development practices - the Thread.

Dev teams are burned out. Audiences are burning out.

Games are becoming more homogenous to make Dev easier, faster, safer, more economical.

Let's take the top 4 series on Playstation in the PS4->PS5 cycle.
  • Spider-Man
  • God of War
  • Horizon
  • Last of Us
These are each the same game. Different dressing, but very, very similar in game design from a play perspective. What distinguishes them are the atmosphere, some design elements, and of course the stories. They have far more in common than they have differences. The quality of these games is less about game design itself and more about the worlds you get to explore.

Contrast with Final Fantasy - games which feel very different *within the same series*. Usually they have unique game design to each one. Playing one is not learning to play the others. 7, 8, 9 are each very different in their RPG elements.

Looking down the pipeline on Insomniac development - these are the only games they are making. There are no experiments, no novel concepts. It's an IP mill.

This is a natural consequence of high risk, high cost development. You have less eggs, similar eggs in the same basket. No small passion projects. No experimentation. The only truly novel game we have had in the PS5 cycle has been Returnal - it was not a home run - now publishers/developers are scared to do new things.

The problem is that Playstation has nurtured their audience to expect a certain type of game at a certain quality. Sony devs are burning out on developing these games. At some point the next of these games is going to sell worse than the previous and when that happens, not if, when, Playstation will be in trouble. They are not growing because they are delivering the same game to the same audience, year after year.

To reverse this trend, you must reverse the expectations. You have to *change*. Change is very risky, but it is necessary. Best to change at the same time you hedge with these safe games. Develop smaller experiments. Do novel things. Attract a new audience. Sony - because their margins are so thin - doesn't have enough capital to experiment. They are currently risk-averse and are spending all their energy trying to maintain what they have.
Great post and correct. Doing safe sequels is the safest way to spend money, but eventually safe sequels WILL fail to capture a new audience. Experimenting is a necessity, not a luxury. If you stop taking risks to potentially bring in a new audience, you stagnate. They have robbed themselves of the opportunity to have their own Switch Sports or Animal Crossing because they have deemed these games too risky. Even with "new IP" like Wolverine, they keep making games targeting the same people over and over again.
 
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Unsustainable development practices - the Thread.

Dev teams are burned out. Audiences are burning out.

Games are becoming more homogenous to make Dev easier, faster, safer, more economical.

Let's take the top 4 series on Playstation in the PS4->PS5 cycle.
  • Spider-Man
  • God of War
  • Horizon
  • Last of Us
These are each the same game. Different dressing, but very, very similar in game design from a play perspective. What distinguishes them are the atmosphere, some design elements, and of course the stories. They have far more in common than they have differences. The quality of these games is less about game design itself and more about the worlds you get to explore.

Contrast with Final Fantasy - games which feel very different *within the same series*. Usually they have unique game design to each one. Playing one is not learning to play the others. 7, 8, 9 are each very different in their RPG elements.

Looking down the pipeline on Insomniac development - these are the only games they are making. There are no experiments, no novel concepts. It's an IP mill.

This is a natural consequence of high risk, high cost development. You have less eggs, similar eggs in the same basket. No small passion projects. No experimentation. The only truly novel game we have had in the PS5 cycle has been Returnal - it was not a home run - now publishers/developers are scared to do new things.

The problem is that Playstation has nurtured their audience to expect a certain type of game at a certain quality. Sony devs are burning out on developing these games. At some point the next of these games is going to sell worse than the previous and when that happens, not if, when, Playstation will be in trouble. They are not growing because they are delivering the same game to the same audience, year after year.

To reverse this trend, you must reverse the expectations. You have to *change*. Change is very risky, but it is necessary. Best to change at the same time you hedge with these safe games. Develop smaller experiments. Do novel things. Attract a new audience. Sony - because their margins are so thin - doesn't have enough capital to experiment. They are currently risk-averse and are spending all their energy trying to maintain what they have.
I agree with most of this, except I asked myself: "Why is he mentioning FF, though?" ;>

I think "burnout" is going to become a keyword for the next 5-10 years for the video game industry unless something big disrupts the current flow (in a positive way). The market is absolutely flooded with games, way beyond the point of saying "this is good, something for every taste". Nah, there's not "something" for every taste, there's 100 things for every taste and that is a problem. Especially when these 100 things are not of outstanding quality. While this burnout can be applied to many aspects of the industry, it's also part of video games themselves. Sony's 1st-party titles are probably the best example for this: Despite focusing on these cinematic, story-focused games, none of them actually tell meaningful, fresh stories. It's always saddad story here, self-sacrificing hero story there, or just your average Spiderman-story, because whatever, web-swinging!!1 If you cannot surprise with fresh gameplay, then be better with the stories you tell. Be controversial. Make your audience upset. Surprise them in ways that haven't been done in other games countless times. But that never happens. For all the emphasis gamersTM and award shows put on story and presentation, it's the AAA-games that feature the most "been there, done that"-type of stories. And so we have games that play the same, tell the same stories, and that is repeated ad nauseum; until it doesn't work anymore. Then industry analysts complain about online-multiplayer games or f2p-games like Genshin Impact, but here I am completely unsurprised. To a vast amount of gamers, these games are no less entertaining than the expensive AAA-games, yet are free. And all their friends are there.

Gaming used to be exciting and willing to surprise us. This past and current generation will be best remembered as the "generation of remasters and remakes". Anyone who believes video games have already depleted all ideas for fresh, exciting game concepts, both for gameplay and stories, they should leave the industry and make room for a motivated indie-developer. Higher budgets won't solve the problem of playing it too save. The audience has realized that and is tired. That's why people are more excited about a PS5 Pro than its actual games. Hardware feels fresher than software at this point.
 
I agree with most of this, except I asked myself: "Why is he mentioning FF, though?" ;>

I think "burnout" is going to become a keyword for the next 5-10 years for the video game industry unless something big disrupts the current flow (in a positive way). The market is absolutely flooded with games, way beyond the point of saying "this is good, something for every taste". Nah, there's not "something" for every taste, there's 100 things for every taste and that is a problem. Especially when these 100 things are not of outstanding quality. While this burnout can be applied to many aspects of the industry, it's also part of video games themselves. Sony's 1st-party titles are probably the best example for this: Despite focusing on these cinematic, story-focused games, none of them actually tell meaningful, fresh stories. It's always saddad story here, self-sacrificing hero story there, or just your average Spiderman-story, because whatever, web-swinging!!1 If you cannot surprise with fresh gameplay, then be better with the stories you tell. Be controversial. Make your audience upset. Surprise them in ways that haven't been done in other games countless times. But that never happens. For all the emphasis gamersTM and award shows put on story and presentation, it's the AAA-games that feature the most "been there, done that"-type of stories. And so we have games that play the same, tell the same stories, and that is repeated ad nauseum; until it doesn't work anymore. Then industry analysts complain about online-multiplayer games or f2p-games like Genshin Impact, but here I am completely unsurprised. To a vast amount of gamers, these games are no less entertaining than the expensive AAA-games, yet are free. And all their friends are there.

Gaming used to be exciting and willing to surprise us. This past and current generation will be best remembered as the "generation of remasters and remakes". Anyone who believes video games have already depleted all ideas for fresh, exciting game concepts, both for gameplay and stories, they should leave the industry and make room for a motivated indie-developer. Higher budgets won't solve the problem of playing it too save. The audience has realized that and is tired. That's why people are more excited about a PS5 Pro than its actual games. Hardware feels fresher than software at this point.
No idea why you're calling out Sony here they did that and then some with TLOU2 :p
 
What an amazing level of discussion here.
What's next? All Mario games are same?

FF7-9 games are different because they each have 1 unique system (Materia - GF - Equipment skills), but Spiderman and God of War are same game. Uh-huh.
 
What an amazing level of discussion here.
What's next? All Mario games are same?

FF7-9 games are different because they each have 1 unique system (Materia - GF - Equipment skills), but Spiderman and God of War are same game. Uh-huh.
FF maybe went through the PS2 being similar, but since the 360 its all been very different. And even on the PS2 each new one had a different setting, cast and gimmick.

Spider-Man 2 and GoW are different, but in the same way TotK is different. TotK didnt bring any new nu-Zelda fans, as evidenced by sales.

Though honestly, of all 3 console makers, MS is the one that had the problem of too many sequels that played the same. Look at what happened to Halo and Gears.
 
I think live service games kind of ruined it for everybody. Everyone wants in on it but you can probably sustain 1 or 2 of those but there's a limit to how much gaming time you can commit. people can commit to decently sized games from time to time even when they are commited to a live service game but not many people can juggle between too many live service games. I think a balanced approach is better. have a few live service games but keep making other games in genres people like. Give the studios proper time to do it too. Valueble teams like Bioware or a few Ubisoft teams wasted too much time on these type of games.
 
What an amazing level of discussion here.
What's next? All Mario games are same?

FF7-9 games are different because they each have 1 unique system (Materia - GF - Equipment skills), but Spiderman and God of War are same game. Uh-huh.
It's been obvious for quite some time that a sizable portion of this forum has never actually played a game made by Sony or Microsoft. They just talk about them having no idea what they are like.

Like, complaining about Microsoft and Sony not "surprising and upsetting their audience" with risky narrative decisions when it was Microsoft who made players play as the fucking Arbiter in Halo 2. You know, the guy who had killed billions of humans?

Many people hated the Arbiter when Halo 2 came out, that's why the Arbiter has like 2 lines in Halo 3 and you play the entire game as John and Thel literally plays no role in the narrative of that game. People hated playing as "the bad guy" when Halo 2 came out so Bungie and Microsoft backtracked massively. There is a reason why halo2sucks.com was a thing.

And it was the same with Halo 5. How can you say a game like Halo 5 doesn't take bold, risky narrative choices? Well, it's easy: you can say that if you haven't played it at all.

I literally can't think of games that were more controversial because of its narrative choices than Halo 2, Halo 5 and TLOU2. All made by Sony and Microsoft.
 
It's been obvious for quite some time that a sizable portion of this forum has never actually played a game made by Sony or Microsoft. They just talk about them having no idea what they are like.

Like, complaining about Microsoft and Sony not "surprising and upsetting their audience" with risky narrative decisions when it was Microsoft who made players play as the fucking Arbiter in Halo 2. You know, the guy who had killed billions of humans?

Many people hated the Arbiter when Halo 2 came out, that's why the Arbiter has like 2 lines in Halo 3 and you play the entire game as John and Thel literally plays no role in the narrative of that game. People hated playing as "the bad guy" when Halo 2 came out so Bungie and Microsoft backtracked massively. There is a reason why halo2sucks.com was a thing.

And it was the same with Halo 5. How can you say a game like Halo 5 doesn't take bold, risky narrative choices? Well, it's easy: you can say that if you haven't played it at all.

I literally can't think of games that were more controversial because of its narrative choices than Halo 2, Halo 5 and TLOU2. All made by Sony and Microsoft.

Halo's sequel trilogy also feels weird narratively since it looks like 343 keeps on backtracking on what the main antagonists are supposed to be due to negative feedback. The Didact was dealt with in a comic, Cortana and the whole AI revolution was dealt with off-screen, now I feel that Atriox, the Banished and whatever the Endless are will be replaced by The Flood again or something next game.
 
Halo's sequel trilogy also feels weird narratively since it looks like 343 keeps on backtracking on what the main antagonists are supposed to be due to negative feedback. The Didact was dealt with in a comic, Cortana and the whole AI revolution was dealt with off-screen, now I feel that Atriox, the Banished and whatever the Endless are will be replaced by The Flood again or something next game.
Yes, but that's my point. The Created were backtracked because they literally made people upset. Halo Infinite's story was much better received than 5's because it mostly did not upset anyone, it was an incredibly safe story for a Halo game.

So what Microsoft should take from that is that they need to upset their audience again with risky narrative choices? I don't get it. That applies to Sony too. TLOU2 was, on the whole, less succesful than TLOU1 (while still being very successful anyway) . But if ND decided to make TLOU3 a safer story why would anyone blame them?

I just don't see how you see where Sony and Microsoft are and come to the conclusion that they need to upset their audience. They... have already done that. Multiple times. And it's mostly not led to particularly high fan satisfaction.

Gears 5 is another example with "the choice" and the treatment of JD. The biggest supporter of Gears 5's narrative choices is probably Noah Caldwell-Gervais, and his video on Gears has thousands of comments criticizing both those choices and him for defending them.
 
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