Square Enix output strategy | Discussion thread.

[Blue Monty]

I doubt Square dont want to receive more Money.

What does make you think that there a big audience for FF in Nintendo consoles? Just because RPGs sell well on Switch?

RPGs sell really well on PlayStation too, there arent millions of people waiting for a FF release on Switch to go out there and buy it too.

Worldwide JRPGs sell usually better on the Switch than PS4 this has been proven multiple times in cases of day 1 releases in both consoles in which the playerbase isn’t already in one of the consoles , and even sometimes you have situations like Trails or Atelier than in the West the Switch version outsells the PS4 one. FF is one the biggest JRPG franchises thinking that it wouldn’t sell well on the Switch is foolish even if course it would sell better on PS4 due to the playerbase already being there , it would be the same situation in case of a Persona day 1 release.

This is not like MH Rise and MH World, even for them, it ended up with Rise selling less than World outside of Japan

MH:Rise on the Switch has sold more than World did in any platform. 7.7M (last switch only update) versus 5.4M (PS4 version Capcom leak) . And this is before Sunbreak , Capcom leak was after Iceborn so the difference will only grow. We know , Japan was only 50% of Rise sales that’s 3.85M worldwide which will increase quite a lot with Sunbreak and it’s probably already bigger , launch aligned Switch in the West alone will probably be bigger than MH:World PS4 version worldwide

 

[TheSilentWombat]

If there isn't an audience for FF on other platforms, then that is the fault of Square. Their unwillingness to consistently release their games on other platforms is naturally going to make it hard for people on other platforms to care about their games. Square is just unwilling to put in the effort to grow an audience on other platforms and then are surprised when people aren't interested in their games.

 

[Damage2]

This data about MH World is wrong, it didnt sell just 5.4M in the PS4, it sold 3M just in Japan, why do you think it would sell just that on PS4 outside of Japan, the sales for the PC version of Rise are much lower too.

Say that JRPGs sell better on Switch than PS4 just because some smaller games had the Switch version selling 10K more than the PS4 version its pretty much trying to fit something in your narrative.

A FF9 Remake or whatever it would sell well on the Switch , but the Switch is not the savior of JRPGs where every JRPG sell millions like you think

 

[Blue Monty]

This data about MH World is wrong, it didnt sell just 5.4M in the PS4, it sold 3M just in Japan, why do you think it would sell just that on PS4 outside of Japan, the sales for the PC version of Rise are much lower too.

Say that JRPGs sell better on Switch than PS4 just because some smaller games had the Switch version selling 10K more than the PS4 version its pretty much wishful thinking

https://www.google.com/amp/s/gaming...side-of-japan-as-per-leaked-sales-figures/amp
i was wrong sry but still Rise will outsell PS4 in the long run

 

[Abzeronow]

This data about MH World is wrong, it didnt sell just 5.4M in the PS4, it sold 3M just in Japan, why do you think it would sell just that on PS4 outside of Japan, the sales for the PC version of Rise are much lower too.

Say that JRPGs sell better on Switch than PS4 just because some smaller games had the Switch version selling 10K more than the PS4 version its pretty much trying to fit something in your narrative.

A FF9 Remake or whatever it would sell well on the Switch , but the Switch is not the savior of JRPGs where every JRPG sell millions like you think

Nintendo publishes one of the best selling JRPG franchises: Pokemon. The Switch isn't a guarantee for every JRPG game but it does have a very welcoming environment for them as Xenoblade 2 sales have shown and as Team Asano regularly beats 1 million in sales.

Atelier still sells better on PS4 but the gap has been shrinking with every game. As a JRPG fan, I'm definitely happy with the selection that's been on the Switch so far.

 

[enpleinjour]

Its hard to imagine a FF fan not having owned a Playstation for the past 15-20 years. That fanbase is pretty much entirely on Playstation (80%-90% , perhaps 80% of the total including PC SKU).
FF9 is also not incredibly popular like FF7 or FFX so I don't see some huge missed market, or one that Sony can't easily pay for.

 

[Wiggler]

With Square’s ambitions for offline FF in mind, I don’t think it’s possible we’ll ever be seeing a AAA numbered title developed with Nintendo as the lead platform. While some games routinely skip Switch for no apparent reason, I don’t know if that mainline FF fits that bill.

For games like FF7 Remake, FFXV, and FFXVI, which were billed as cinematic; “cutting-edge” and hardware defining, the idea of a native Switch version probably wasn’t entertained for very long. It just seems kind of at odds with what Square has been trying to do with the franchise for the past 30 or so years, and this isn’t to say that Switch hardware can’t accommodate big, showy games. Cutting back on those ambitions would be positive for the industry overall, but I, and many other people would be extremely shocked and a little upset if that actually happened.

What they should be doing is launching simultaneously on PC and actually trying to cultivate an audience there. If they’re gonna keep taking these exclusivity deals, and refuse to build AAA games natively for Switch, that seems like the best course of action.

Also, on the topic of FFIX Remake, hopefully it’s multi-platform. If it is, I’m expecting it’ll sell the most on Switch in Japan, and more on PS everywhere else

 

[cw_sasuke]

FFX/FFX-2 sold pretty well on PS3/PS4, FFXII Zodiac Age shipped 1 million

Im not telling you that if FFIXR released on Switch, it would have millions of secret FF fans waiting for this and getting day one. The majority of FF fans are not on Nintendo consoles, Square made sure most of people to buy the next PlayStation console if they want to play the next FF

Nah, many JRPG fans own a Switch including many PS4 owners.
Saying that a big budget game would perform and sell well on NSW, doesnt mean that the audience isnt on PS.

If 7R launches first on Switch and is pushed by Nintendo/SE while selling 5m - how much do you think a late port 1-2 years would sell on Playstation ? Probably much less than it could have as a initial exclusive, would that mean the FF fans arent on PS anymore because marketing deals have prevented them from getting the game on PS first this time ?

If FF Pixel Remaster games are released at the same time on all consoles this fall - you think its performing best on PS 4/5 compared to Switch because there are more FF fans on these systems ?

 

[ILikeFeet]

many other people would be extremely shocked and a little upset if that actually happened.

Nah, there aren't enough people to care to even count as noise. Desirable games on popular systems sell, graphics be damned. The fact it'd be multiplatform means SE could have their cake and eat it

 

[Kmds]

On the topic of Final Fantasy IX Remake, it'll sell more on PlayStation in Japan by a ratio of 60:40.

Whereas in the West and Asia, it'll sell around 50:50 or more on Switch. The thing that people seem to NEVER understand is that yes switch is very important for Japan and Asia but it's MORE important for the West.

These sales trends have been seen by so many Jrpgs or Japanese games in general.

 

[Joxer]

On the topic of Final Fantasy IX Remake, it'll sell more on PlayStation in Japan by a ratio of 60:40.

Whereas in the West and Asia, it'll sell around 50:50 or more on Switch. The thing that people seem to NEVER understand is that yes switch is very important for Japan and Asia but it's MORE important for the West.

These sales trends have been seen by so many Jrpgs or Japanese games in general.

It's either people being wilfully ignorant despite spending years on sales threads or still being stuck in the early 2000s era of PS2 being the dominant platform.

Just this week, we got further proof of Switch being the preferred platform for this type of game with the Chrono Cross remaster:

Also new this week in the GSD digital charts is Chrono Cross: The Radical Dreamers Edition at No.9. The remaster of the classic RPG sold best on Nintendo Switch (44% of sales), followed by PS4 (31%), then PC (15%) and finally Xbox (11%).

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And this is something that has become a regular occurence in a major market where historically, Nintendo has performed relatively disappointingly.

This is also a game which has never been on anything but Playstation before.

 

[storres]

It's either people being wilfully ignorant despite spending years on sales threads or still being stuck in the early 2000s era of PS2 being the dominant platform.

Just this week, we got further proof of Switch being the preferred platform for this type of game with the Chrono Cross remaster:

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LEGO Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga was not just a big hit at UK retail, but a major digital sales success, too.The Warn…

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And this is something that has become a regular occurence in a major market where historically, Nintendo has performed relatively disappointingly.

This is also a game which has never been on anything but Playstation before.

That's a good catch. Chrono Cross.

 

[Abzeronow]

Legend of Mana TV anime premieres this year. I wouldn't be surprised to see some Mana game announcement or release this year.

Legend of Mana: The Teardrop Crystal Anime Reveals Promo Video, Visual, Cast, Staff

Anime based on game debuts in 2022 // The official website for Legend of Mana: The Teardrop Crystal (Seiken Densetsu Legend of Mana: The Teardrop Crystal in...

www.animenewsnetwork.com

 

[Marukoban]

Legend of Mana TV anime premieres this year. I wouldn't be surprised to see some Mana game announcement or release this year.

Legend of Mana: The Teardrop Crystal Anime Reveals Promo Video, Visual, Cast, Staff

Anime based on game debuts in 2022 // The official website for Legend of Mana: The Teardrop Crystal (Seiken Densetsu Legend of Mana: The Teardrop Crystal in...

www.animenewsnetwork.com

Theres a Mana gacha game launching today/tomorrow

 

[VengefulMagus]

Legend of Mana TV anime premieres this year. I wouldn't be surprised to see some Mana game announcement or release this year.

Legend of Mana: The Teardrop Crystal Anime Reveals Promo Video, Visual, Cast, Staff

Anime based on game debuts in 2022 // The official website for Legend of Mana: The Teardrop Crystal (Seiken Densetsu Legend of Mana: The Teardrop Crystal in...

www.animenewsnetwork.com

I think if a new console game was being released this year they would've announced it with Echoes of Mana or not long after. If we saw an announcement at the very least that'd be nice though, at the Echoes announcement event they did say something was in development.

 

[Abzeronow]

Square Enix keeps the Just Cause, Outriders and Life Is Strange IPs but sells Tomb Raider, Deus Ex, and Legacy of Kain among others. Sale of western studios was expected (these were big money pits), the low price Embracer got was a little unexpected.

 

[LoneRanger]

The biggest loss is Tomb Raider IP imo.

I imagine Square-Enix has become a little more cheap to buy now, even though I don’t think it will be bought by any first party publisher.

 

[Abzeronow]

Oof. 0.65% profit margin for Eidos Montreal. Square Enix should have a stronger FY now than the recently concluded one.

 

[Damage2]

That was the same FY that Eidos Montreal released GoTG, isnt?

 

[Abzeronow]

That was the same FY that Eidos Montreal released GoTG, isnt?

No, GoTG was released in FY ended March 2022. That shows FY ended March 2021. The Financial Results for FY3/2022 will be revealed on May 13.

 

[Damage2]

I mean, they didnt release any game in that FY, so it does make sense for the low numbers

 

[skulkidcachi90]

Please use that money to expand the Asano team.

 

[Sulley]

Oof. 0.65% profit margin for Eidos Montreal. Square Enix should have a stronger FY now than the recently concluded one.

Is it just me, or are these charts incredibly misleading? I feel like seeing how much money was poured into the development of X game and seeing how much X game made would be more valuable than just seeing the operational cost and revenue a studio generates on specific years. Like, if they aren't releasing a game in a specific year, of course their profit margin is going to be tiny while their development cost are going to be huge.

 

[unkindlynice]

Square Enix keeps the Just Cause, Outriders and Life Is Strange IPs but sells Tomb Raider, Deus Ex, and Legacy of Kain among others. Sale of western studios was expected (these were big money pits), the low price Embracer got was a little unexpected.

Interesting. I really enjoyed Outriders, Gamepass was perfect for it - clearly planning a follow up; Life is Strange obviously a continuing IP - so we can expect a Just Cause reboot this gen right?

 

[Luke88]

Imho this is a massive loss for SE, not only did they undersell very valuable IPs and Studios, but they just gave up on facing their management and QA issues, something that doesn't affect only the western branch of the company...
I find it really hard to put the blame on Eidos or Crystal Dynamics for how Avengers and GotG ended up performing.

 

[BoktaiFan]

IMO this is going g to put big pressure on Forespoken and FF15l6 to perform.

If those are an Avengers or GOTG level performance how will they spin that?

 

[Blue Monty]

IMO this is going g to put big pressure on Forespoken and FF15l6 to perform.

If those are an Avengers or GOTG level performance how will they spin that?

Go the Konami way and focus on Mobile/Small games/MMO

 

[Damage2]

I believe Life is Strange True Colors didnt sell that much too, i can see they abandoning the franchise

IMO this is going g to put big pressure on Forespoken and FF15l6 to perform.

If those are an Avengers or GOTG level performance how will they spin that?

I believe its cheaper to produce a game in Japan that in San Francisco or Montreal, salaries are lower.

They probably dont expect Forspoken to do GoTG numbers, because its their own IP and its not that expensive to make

 

[fiendcode]

Forspoken is basically taking up mainline FF resources. I fully expect that they're projecting a 5m+ seller there in line with KH, DQ or Nier.

 

[Abzeronow]

Forspoken is basically taking up mainline FF resources. I fully expect that they're projecting a 5m+ seller there in line with KH, DQ or Nier.

Luminous is a completely different division than those that handle the MMO stuff (CBU 3) and Yoshi-P's team which is currently working on FF16. I suppose you mean Luminous could be working on another mainline Final Fantasy game but I don't see Forspoken taking up resources currently that could be allocated towards FF14 or FF16. Of course in terms of opportunity cost, sure.

 

[fiendcode]

Luminous is a completely different division than those that handle the MMO stuff (CBU 3) and Yoshi-P's team which is currently working on FF16. I suppose you mean Luminous could be working on another mainline Final Fantasy game but I don't see Forspoken taking up resources currently that could be allocated towards FF14 or FF16. Of course in terms of opportunity cost, sure.

Yeah, I just meant in terms of scale and association. FFXVII will probably come from Luminous tbh.

 

[KR_EP]

Crystal Dynamics working on a Perfect Dark game with The Initiative could have been an eye opener on the benefits of middleware coupled with Epic Games tech demo screaming Tomb Raider.

It also would help if Square Enix developers in North America, Europe & Japan all used the same engine going forward so that staff could move back & forth more readily to assist major projects.

Whoever posted that is a complete & utter...oh wait --

The press release mentioned Square Enix External Group & Square Enix Collective remaining with its parent company. The former is mentioned as still having IP rights for Just Cause, Life is Strange & Outriders. Regarding the latter, it's worth noting that Square Enix is no longer the publisher of Goetia as of 13th April 2022, 6 years afters it was the first release, 14th April 2016. The game reverted to the IP owner & Goetia is now published by Forever Entertainment.

Might be worth keeping track of the publishing rights for the remaining Square Enix Collective line up & whether or not Square Enix still holds a 20% minority stake in The Turing Test & Battalion 1944 developer Bulkhead.

 

[unkindlynice]

IMO this is going g to put big pressure on Forespoken and FF15l6 to perform.

If those are an Avengers or GOTG level performance how will they spin that?

Or they might just take the exclusive cash and reinvest it into where they want to go next.

 

[Damage2]

Square selling even the Tomb Raider IP shows that they are not even interested in making Remakes of the older games of the series, Forever studio could be a good one for something like that

 

[KtSlime]

There western studios never got very well integrated, they probably should have sold for more, but no time to spare when cutting off a gangrenous limb, surprised they hadn’t done it sooner.

 

[Terrell]

There western studios never got very well integrated, they probably should have sold for more, but no time to spare when cutting off a gangrenous limb, surprised they hadn’t done it sooner.

Well, seems it wasn’t for a lack of trying. There‘s been talk about trying to sell most/all of their dev teams and IPs from SQE Europe since late last year.

 

[Celestial]

Imho this is a massive loss for SE, not only did they undersell very valuable IPs and Studios, but they just gave up on facing their management and QA issues, something that doesn't affect only the western branch of the company...
I find it really hard to put the blame on Eidos or Crystal Dynamics for how Avengers and GotG ended up performing.

Looking at their numbers, seems like Square Enix just got 300 million for two bloated studios that were super risky and with terrible profit margins. Besides, it’s not like their Japanese branch would develop a Tomb Raider.

 

[LoneRanger]

Curious if it happens and what reactions will be here.

In addition, I’m a little surprised nintendo isn’t interested on doing nothin as S-E is a mayor japanese partner.

 

[MegaXZero]

Curious if it happens and what reactions will be here.

In addition, I’m a little surprised nintendo isn’t interested on doing nothin as S-E is a mayor japanese partner.

The big thing to remember is no one actually leaks acquisitions (which he admits) so just take his ramblings as insider bullshit.

And if Nintendo was trying to acquire someone specific, he wouldn't know.

 

[J-Cat]

Curious if it happens and what reactions will be here.

In addition, I’m a little surprised nintendo isn’t interested on doing nothin as S-E is a mayor japanese partner.

Well what could Nintendo really do outside of hiring Asano and his team and some other key talent? They wouldn't buy Square Enix, or engage in any kind of bidding war.

But yeah if Sony did acquire SE then they can kiss the Japanese market goodbye.
Assuming DQ publishing deal remained and was exclusive to PS going forward.

 

[Blue Monty]

In addition, I’m a little surprised nintendo isn’t interested on doing nothin as S-E is a mayor japanese partner.

They can’t do anything outside of upbidding which even if they were able to, they would never do, not only it would go against Nintendo's policy of acquisitions against hostile takeovers but what Nintendo would even do with non-gaming SE assets and even the gaming ones being too big for Nintendo to control as much as they like doing so. We have to accept at one point that Nintendo isn’t going to buy any big publisher almost for sure.

 

[Terrell]

Curious if it happens and what reactions will be here.

In addition, I’m a little surprised nintendo isn’t interested on doing nothin as S-E is a mayor japanese partner.

I genuinely don't think it will. There's just so much running against it.

First, they'd need to get Yasuhiro Fukushima (the founder of Enix and largest single shareholder with 25.44% of all shares when combining his personal holdings and those of Fukushima Planning Co.) on board with the sale.

Next, for a platform holder to absorb SQE, they'd need to divest even more than they have already, have the platform holder divest for them (likely at a loss) or be willing to enter those markets with little expertise, such as:

• Just from Taito alone:
  • amusement machines
  • amusement centres, which includes...
    • gacha halls
    • arcades
    • kids' gymnasium (rock climbing, ball pits, trampolining, etc.)
    • bowling alleys
• manga publishing (Gangan Comics)
• Figures and merchandising
  • cafes that operate as both food service and merchandise retail

... and I'm sure I'm still managing to forget things. That's a LOT of new business ventures for a platform holder to either take on or try to immediately divest. So if there is further divestment in these areas, that would be our first clue that a sale was being genuinely considered.

And after ALL of that, they'd still have to get the entire board of directors to sign off on a price per share that they would consider acceptable.

It's frankly too much that would need to be done and near-impossible to keep a secret in the interim.

Well what could Nintendo really do outside of hiring Asano and his team and some other key talent? They wouldn't buy Square Enix, or engage in any kind of bidding war.

But yeah if Sony did acquire SE then they can kiss the Japanese market goodbye.
Assuming DQ publishing deal remained and was exclusive to PS going forward.

Dragon Quest would more likely stop existing at all, as they do not wholly own the IP. The new parent company would need to get both Yuji Horii/Armor Project AND Akira Toriyama/Bird Studio on board to continue and... I dunno, I don't think Horii would go for it. For all we know, depending on the contract between SQE, Armor Project and Bird Studio regarding the rights, the full rights could even potentially revert to Armor Project and Bird Studio to take to another publisher in the event of SQE's dissolution or sale. We just don't know. But the likely scenario is Horii would walk away and make something new if he didn't have control.

 

[skulkidcachi90]

So I guess Nintendo would have to deal with the consequences of lose SE games.

I dont think monolith would be able to sustain the jrpg fanbase of Nintendo fanbase.

 

[Abzeronow]

So I guess Nintendo would have to deal with the consequences of lose SE games.

I dont think monolith would be able to sustain the jrpg fanbase of Nintendo fanbase.

Nintendo also has Fire Emblem and Pokemon. And Yuji Horii and Akira Toriyama are essentially Dragon Quest. Nintendo could always headhunt Tomoya Asano and key members of his team if Square Enix ever gets acquired by Sony or Microsoft (which is unlikely)

 

[J-Cat]

I genuinely don't think it will. There's just so much running against it.

First, they'd need to get Yasuhiro Fukushima (the founder of Enix and largest single shareholder with 25.44% of all shares when combining his personal holdings and those of Fukushima Planning Co.) on board with the sale.

Next, for a platform holder to absorb SQE, they'd need to divest even more than they have already, have the platform holder divest for them (likely at a loss) or be willing to enter those markets with little expertise, such as:

• Just from Taito alone:
  • amusement machines
  • amusement centres, which includes...
    • gacha halls
    • arcades
    • kids' gymnasium (rock climbing, ball pits, trampolining, etc.)
    • bowling alleys
• manga publishing (Gangan Comics)
• Figures and merchandising
  • cafes that operate as both food service and merchandise retail

... and I'm sure I'm still managing to forget things. That's a LOT of new business ventures for a platform holder to either take on or try to immediately divest. So if there is further divestment in these areas, that would be our first clue that a sale was being genuinely considered.

And after ALL of that, they'd still have to get the entire board of directors to sign off on a price per share that they would consider acceptable.

It's frankly too much that would need to be done and near-impossible to keep a secret in the interim.

Dragon Quest would more likely stop existing at all, as they do not wholly own the IP. The new parent company would need to get both Yuji Horii/Armor Project AND Akira Toriyama/Bird Studio on board to continue and... I dunno, I don't think Horii would go for it. For all we know, depending on the contract between SQE, Armor Project and Bird Studio regarding the rights, the full rights could even potentially revert to Armor Project and Bird Studio to take to another publisher in the event of SQE's dissolution or sale. We just don't know. But the likely scenario is Horii would walk away and make something new if he didn't have control.

Exactly, and I made the same point on another thread.
According to Jeff Grubb they sold this valuable IP to appear more streamlined for potential acquisition. If SE wanted to appear streamlined for acquisition (in those later tweets he says he was referring to Sony) why wouldn't they have sold the manga, merchandising and arcade businesses instead of the one thing Sony might actually have wanted, and may have increased SE's value?


I dunno it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Blue Monty]

So I guess Nintendo would have to deal with the consequences of lose SE games.

I dont think monolith would be able to sustain the jrpg fanbase of Nintendo fanbase.

Monolith alone probably not but Monolith Soft+Inteligent Systems+Gamefreak for ‘first’ party studios alone probably does. Also literally any other jrpg studio would still be able to release their games on the Switch , losing Team Asano/DQ games would suck yes, but it's nothing major and it’s worse for Team Asano/DQ games the lack of Switch SKU than for Switch sales the lack of these two.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Considering 80 billion dollar acquisitions are on the table, making yourself 300 million more or less valuable is not going to change the likelihood of a company being acquired.

They sold them because their games werent financially successful, not because they want to get bought out.

 

[skulkidcachi90]

Monolith alone probably not but Monolith Soft+Inteligent Systems+Gamefreak for ‘first’ party studios alone probably does. Also literally any other jrpg studio would still be able to release their games on the Switch , losing Team Asano/DQ games would suck yes, but it's nothing major and it’s worse for Team Asano/DQ games the lack of Switch SKU than for Switch sales the lack of these two.

Yes but like it or not great part of the active fanbase of Nintendo are rabid jrpg fans, SE until now maintened big part of that part happy thanks to the release of good quality AA jrpg.
Nintendo itself would not be capable to sustain the release of jrpg to the level switch have.

In long term could be very problematic.

 

[Tokuiten]

Yes but like it or not great part of the active fanbase of Nintendo are rabid jrpg fans, SE until now maintened big part of that part happy thanks to the release of good quality AA jrpg.
Nintendo itself would not be capable to sustain the release of jrpg to the level switch have.

In long term could be very problematic.

You people realize that there are ton of JRPGs on Switch neither from Nintendo nor SE, right?

 

[Blue Monty]

Yes but like it or not great part of the active fanbase of Nintendo are rabid jrpg fans, SE until now maintened big part of that part happy thanks to the release of good quality AA jrpg.
Nintendo itself would not be capable to sustain the release of jrpg to the level switch have.

In long term could be very problematic.

Nintendo has found in SE a partner that delivers AA JRPG in a consistent way which helps have their fanbase happy that’s true but still Nintendo would retain almost all JRPG fanbase when you consider they own the most popular JRPG, the most popular SRPG and the most popular new JRPG IP of the last decade.

Also Nintendo has the money to pay to any other jrpg studio they have worked with in the past (Gust,Marvelous,Mistwalker,Atlus or even BNS) to create exclusive JRPGs only for them and this is without considering that Monolith Soft has expanded heavily and should be able to deliver soon more than just Xenoblade.