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Sega output strategy | Discussion thread

Abzeronow

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We already have a thread devoted to Sega's subsidiary Atlus, but Sega itself has been the center of more than one spirited debate on it's output strategies on various platforms such as PC, Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft here and on predecessor forums. Sega, which has a very deep catalog of video games that goes back to the 1970s, has gone through quite a few changes over the years. Sonic remains Sega's mascot and is still one of its best known IPs. The Yakuza series including its various spinoffs is a prestigious IP for Sega too (which basically is the kind of the franchise they wanted with Shenmue). Puyo Puyo is also now an evergreen IP that they own (which was bought from Compile). Their subsidiary Atlus has a few well known IPs as well (Megami Tensei; Persona) but the Atlus thread will still cover those. EDIT: https://www.installbaseforum.com/forums/threads/atlus-output-strategy-discussion-thread.462/ is the Atlus thread link

Sega, which started its corporate life as Service Games, was originally a manufacturer of gambling machines. It expanded into amusements in the 1960s, and for much of its history in video games, it was primarily focused on arcades. Early consoles like the Atari VCS and the ColecoVision would get ports of their arcade games, and on July 15, 1983, Sega would launch its first console, the SG-1000. It was a moderate success in Japan but was eclipsed by the Famicom by 1984. Their next console would be an improved iteration on the SG-1000, the Mark III or Master System as the world would know it as. They would release subsequent consoles in 1988 (Mega Drive/Genesis), 1994 (the Saturn) and 1998 (Dreamcast) and would exit as a video games hardware manufacturer in 2001. For the rest of the 6th generation of video games, Sega would make a few exclusives for GameCube and Xbox before going with a multiplatform strategy that often prioritized PlayStation and Xbox. The Nintendo Wii would see exclusives like the Mario & Sonic games but Sega would also use Playstation 2 for the continuation of their Sega Ages line (which would then go to PS3 and Xbox 360 for a time. Sega Ages also had a brief run on the Nintendo Switch). Sega would also publish games for the PSP like Valkyria Chronicles 2 and 3 and would also publish Sonic games and Puyo Puyo to Nintendo handhelds. The Wii U saw some ports and releases like Sonic Boom and Bayonetta but mostly PlayStation and Xbox for that generation. The Switch has gotten some Sega content like the 1st and 4th Valkyria Chronicles games, Alien Isolation, Puyo Puyo Tetris but Sega has been keeping the Yakuza games on Playstation and Xbox (and PC) and for reasons only known to themselves, made the 2019 Sakura Wars game a PlayStation exclusive. With Drake somewhere on the horizon in the next 2-3 years, will the potential of DLSS on a hybrid entice Sega to put its prestigious Yakuza games on Nintendo? Will Sakura Wars ever get a Switch port?

The decline of PlayStation in Japan has pushed Sega towards multiplatform releases that have Day 1 Xbox/PC ports that maximize it's games exposure in the West. Sega still puts Sonic games on Nintendo platforms, although how well Sonic Frontiers will perform on Switch on a technical level remains to be seen given the challenges of Sonic Team to make good ports to Nintendo platforms (e.g. Sonic Colors). Drake with its DLSS potential could be the catalyst for a reset with Sega, in which more games are brought day and date to Nintendo. Sega is also on board with Nintendo with NSO, and hopefully they are happier with the Expansion Pack arraignment than they are were with Wii's Virtual Console, which underperfomed for them.

So how does Install Base see a post-Nagoshi Sega approach its output strategy? Do they deepen their relations with Nintendo? Do they decide that Sega Ages needs to be multiplatform in the future? Do they continue their usual strategies with PlayStation, Xbox and PC?
 
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SEGA is genuinely a hard one to read. If anything, you would think that their higher-ups would harbour grudges mostly against Sony if anything, considering that they are the ones that killed them as a hardware manufacturer; and yet they keep on supporting them as their primary platform of choice with their biggest projects time and time again.

I mean, I know that Nintendo is the Old Enemy and all, but The Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend and all that surely?!

And then there's their Microsoft support (or lack thereof in modern times without a moneyhat), which is just baffling to me. It took them nearly an entire decade to start putting out Yakuza titles on Xbox, after an incredibly strong start with the OG Xbox. Their support has been generally tepid since then, relegated to just the standard international multiplatform releases (sometimes late after their Playstation counterparts).

Sometimes I wonder if Nagoshi and the current SEGA higher-ups genuinely had/have strong personal connections with the real Yakuza... I mean, we all know that SEGA as a company have definitely dabbled with them over the years... Would certainly explain a few things about their bizzare strategy if they did/still do...
 
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SEGA is genuinely a hard one to read. If anything, you would think that their higher-ups would harbour grudges mostly against Sony if anything, considering that they are the ones that killed them as a hardware manufacturer; and yet they keep on supporting them as their primary platform of choice with their biggest projects time and time again.

I mean, I know that Nintendo is the Old Enemy and all, but The Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend and all that surely?!

And then there's their Microsoft support (or lack thereof in modern times without a moneyhat), which is just baffling to me. It took them nearly an entire decade to start putting out Yakuza titles on Xbox, after an incredibly strong start with the OG Xbox. Their support has been generally tepid since then, relegated to just the standard international multiplatform releases (sometimes late after their Playstation counterparts).

Sometimes I wonder if Nagoshi and the current SEGA higher-ups genuinely had/have strong personal connections with the real Yakuza... I mean, we all know that SEGA as a company have definitely dabbled with them over the years... Would certainly explain a few things about their bizzare strategy if they did/still do...
To me, Sega is the most unfocused publisher in Japan, and I mean that not in the Capcom/Square Enix way where they distribute certain games to certain platforms, but in a confusing way where any game could release or not release on any platform and sometimes you even get the impression Sega is close to pulling a Konami and about to leave the video game market altogether. There only big-ish franchises at this point are Yakuza, Sonic and Persona (the latter due to a fortunate acquisition).

I've said this before, but I think IF a Japanese publisher is ever acquired by one of the big fish, it's gonna be Sega first. And with those MS visits to Japan and Yakuza coming to GamePass and Xbox Series enjoying some moderately positive hw sales in Japan right now, it wouldn't surprise me to see them partner up with MS. But it could be Sony, too. But my impression of Sega is not that of truly healthy company's (in-before someone posting positive business numbers for Sega). They're too big of name, with too little big games behind it. And neither Yakuza nor Sonic are gonna be enough to change that.
 
It's important to remember that even though their Japanese franchises may be in a more questionably state, SEGA still has extremely popular PC franchises (such as Total War and Football Manager) so I don't think we can judge their overall health based on only one of those factors.
 
It's important to remember that even though their Japanese franchises may be in a more questionably state, SEGA still has extremely popular PC franchises (such as Total War and Football Manager) so I don't think we can judge their overall health based on only one of those factors.
I can't believe I forgot about Total War, a still profitable and well selling franchise for them.
 
Sega as a whole just underwent a massive restructuring of the company and it’s important to remember that. Gonna borrow what I collected about it in a post from another thread:

First, their president VERY abruptly "resigned" for "personal reasons" (which is such blatantly obvious code for getting forced out of your job) at the end of July 2020, after 6 years there. In November 2020, they made the call to assist 650 employees with voluntary retirement and the executive team took a universal 30% pay cut with no bonuses issued, while Sega sold majority share in its arcade amusement centres (they sold 100% of the division eventually in 2021). Then, in January 2021, they restructured their entire corporation to fully separate Sega and Sammy into individual and whole subsidiaries with their own distinct management teams that report to the board of directors, meant for oversight and efficiency. Missing from that board of directors, however, was Nagoshi, who was pushed out on the same day as the corporate restructuring, losing his seat on the board AND his position as Chief Creative Officer at Sega (he stayed on as the head of Ryu ga Gotoku Studio but the demotion likely chapped his ass enough that he took a sweetheart deal from Netease and left Sega completely later on in 2021). Further management changes also likely came into effect.

That’s a massive amount of corporate change in less than a year and the large majority of it was motivated by dissatisfaction with the way things were going. Someone clearly pushed hard against Nagoshi to put Yakuza 7 on Xbox Series day-and-date for the worldwide launch (a first for the franchise) and it seemed to pay off for them, much to Nagoshi’s dismay, as he seemed content on his pet franchise being PS-only at launch. I’m of a mind to say that is a major piece of why he was pushed out of upper management, while others put the reasoning solely on the disappointing Sakura Taisen reboot.

This being a major part of the reason for Nagoshi’s removal from upper management was made readily apparent when one of their first earnings releases after the reshuffle leaned heavily on a change of strategy that boils down to “we need to release games on as many platforms as possible on day one”, a notable change for their non-Sonic Team games out of Japan.
I don’t expect that to mean “all our games on Switch”, but day-and-date XBS releases are feeling very certain to be a thing moving forward, and maybe PC/Steam, too. So change is already happening after a rough management transition, which is important to keep in mind when discussing their future direction, because there’s no reason to suspect that they’re done making changes, when another big change from their earnings calls was a suggestion that they make MUCH better use of their whole IP catalog. HotD remake from Forever Entertainment/MegaPixel was likely a part of that (though it’s got Switch exclusivity for now).
 
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The most baffling and infuriating thing about SEGA is the way in which they treat their legacy catalogue and legacy IP. There's just no coherent strategy behind it at all.

They absolutely steadfastly refuse to re-release their Saturn, Dreamcast and mid-90s arcade titles (AKA, the ones that we actually want); and just continue to churn out the same old Megadrive & Master System titles again and again, to the point where they've basically lost almost all of their value. The absolutely stupid and cackhanded way in which they handled the otherwise brilliant SEGA AGES series is absolutely maddening! Why the hell are there FOUR versions of Sonic 2 that I can now play on my Switch FFS!?!?

Meanwhile, they actually bothered to release some of their more interesting arcade titles... in the form of an expensive, bespoke limited edition and very limited run miniture arcade cabinet! Like... I love my little Astro City Mini, but its existence is utterly baffling! Why in the blue FUCK were these titles not released on Switch instead of the 10 millionth version of Sonic 2!?

On the flip-side, when it comes to their legacy IP, they refuse to handle anything in-house that isn't Sonic, Yakuza, Sakura Wars or Super Monkey Ball and will happily just license their IP out to literally any no-name indie or Chinese studio to fuck around with! Sometimes it works out really well (Streets of Rage 4), and sometimes it really doesn't (Panzer Dragoon); but there's just no logic behind any of these decisions at all! And in those cases where they really SHOULD license out their IP, they just... don't! Like, if you really want to just be an IP licensing company, why isn't Bomb Rush Cyberfunk a real Jet Set Radio game with the full license!? It's like they're a hydra with multiple brains that don't talk to each other! (which is pretty ironic, considering that SEGA's biggest problem throughout their entire history has always been infighting amongst their different regional divisions).

Why can't they just let M2 re-release quality versions of their Saturn, Dreamcast and mid-90s arcade titles, like what LITERALLY EVERYONE is asking for!?!?
 
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these discussions typically cut out Sega Europe, whom are a large part of Sega's current success
Can you elaborate a little on that? I'm not an expert on Sega, and I'm curious what Sega Europe develops and produces.

At least the Sega Ages Sonic 2 is the best version, @DCSales The Whitehead Sonic 2 will be interesting as a curiosity and it's good that it's being preserved. I also recommend Sega Ages Phantasy Star as THE definitive version. Automap is such a great quality of life feature.
 
At least the Sega Ages Sonic 2 is the best version, @DCSales The Whitehead Sonic 2 will be interesting as a curiosity and it's good that it's being preserved. I also recommend Sega Ages Phantasy Star as THE definitive version. Automap is such a great quality of life feature.
Oh absolutely! The SEGA AGES series (and its 3DS predecessor) was absolutely incredible while it lasted! M2 did an incredible job with all of those releases... which is why it was so maddening that they killed it off after one series of disappointing sales with games that had mostly been re-released countless times before!! (And this was even after they teased us with M2-made re-releases of Dreamcast titles as part of a proposed SEGA AGES Wave 2!!! Mother FUCKERS!!! 😡)
 
Oh absolutely! The SEGA AGES series (and its 3DS predecessor) was absolutely incredible while it lasted! M2 did an incredible job with all of those releases... which is why it was so maddening that they killed it off after one series of disappointing sales with games that had mostly been re-released countless times before!! (And this was even after they teased us with M2-made re-releases of Dreamcast titles as part of a proposed SEGA AGES Wave 2!!! Mother FUCKER!!! 😡)

I feel bad that we missed out on M2 showing off their NAOMI/Dreamcast emulation skills. I definitely would have liked to explore some of that catalog (I almost bought a Dreamcast something like 5 or 6 years ago. Maybe I should have).
 
Can you elaborate a little on that? I'm not an expert on Sega, and I'm curious what Sega Europe develops and produces.
Sega Europe are primarily a PC dev but does dabble in consoles. they're behind major games like Football Manager (2021 sold 1M units in less than a month), Total War series, (the warhammer subseries is somewhere north of 4 million by now), and whatnot.

they sell a lot of games, in short
 
Sega Europe are primarily a PC dev but does dabble in consoles. they're behind major games like Football Manager (2021 sold 1M units in less than a month), Total War series, (the warhammer subseries is somewhere north of 4 million by now), and whatnot.

they sell a lot of games, in short
They also do a bit on mobile (via Hardlight) and spearhead/coordinate much of Sega Japan's PC ports (Sonic, Yakuza, Monkey Ball, Valkyria, Puyo Puyo, etc). I think Japan side only Atlus handles their PC production themselves now but SOE did do Catherine Classic.
 
these discussions typically cut out Sega Europe, whom are a large part of Sega's current success
Sega Europe are primarily a PC dev but does dabble in consoles. they're behind major games like Football Manager (2021 sold 1M units in less than a month), Total War series, (the warhammer subseries is somewhere north of 4 million by now), and whatnot.

they sell a lot of games, in short
They also do a bit on mobile (via Hardlight) and spearhead/coordinate much of Sega Japan's PC ports (Sonic, Yakuza, Monkey Ball, Valkyria, Puyo Puyo, etc). I think Japan side only Atlus handles their PC production themselves now but SOE did do Catherine Classic.
I think a lot of the reason they're not discussed in conversations like this is that they're kinda "set it and forget it" for Sega. They do what they do, do it well, make Sega some consistent and reliable money, little to no fuss or micro-managing involved. Most Japanese publishers would kill for that.
And as such, there's nothing really to criticize and they frequently escape mention: they've found a super-reliable mostly-PC audience to sell well-made software to, a number of their best-selling projects aren't exactly trying to be massive AAA blockbusters, they call very little attention to themselves unless you happen to play and are a fan of those games, while the fanbase seems to keep stable and/or see steady growth.

The last major waves made by Sega Europe that caused anyone to pay really close attention was Colonial Marines, and the heat for that fell squarely in Gearbox's lap, where most of it belonged.

EDIT: Every publisher in Japan has a division no one really pays any attention to. For Square Enix, that division is Taito. For Bandai Namco, it's typically D3 Publisher.
It's like... if you're talking about Nestle online, people are gonna bring up the candy/chocolate and water businesses, but I doubt anyone will be saying "what about the Stouffer's and Purina divisions, they're important too!", because they're not known for their pre-made frozen dinners and pet food.
 
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Sega launched Sin Chronicle a couple days ago in Japan, the latest in successors to Chain Chronicle (probably the biggest original mobile success for Sega). It hasn't yet appeared on top grossing for either store yet but it is No. 1 for Google Play and No. 8 for iOS for downloads. That seems pretty good in the modern mobile market though we need a few weeks before we can truly see how well it can perform
 
Something I have thought recently is Sega (of Japan) trying to revive a lot of their old franchises (Panzer,Sakura Wars, Virtua Fighter and even kind off Sonic Adventures with Sonic Forces) do we think that they will keep trying to revive their franchises trying to get a big seller again? Outside of Sonic , Sega Japan doesn't seem to have any other big seller worldwide even with the rise of popularity of Yakuza in the West.
pd: I'm talking only about console gaming not mobile gaming
 
a lot of their revivals seem to come externally. after the bombing of Sakura Wars, I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't more big budget internal revivals in the works
 
a lot of their revivals seem to come externally. after the bombing of Sakura Wars, I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't more big budget internal revivals in the works
That seems to be true especially for the more retro focused revivals (like Streets of Rage 4, Panzer Dragoon or Wonder Boy/Monster Boy) which makes sense due to their sales ceiling being lower. But Virtua Fighter 5 Ultimate was done in-house (even if of course it wasn't an AAA project) and it seems like Sega was happy with results to the point of a new entry being something they have thought of. (interview with Seiji Aoki) where Seji Aoki mentioned that a new installment was being considered. I think the way that VF was treated seems like a great way for Sega to try to revive their franchises , with smaller scope games and partnering with other companies like Microsoft (Gamepass) or Sony (PS Plus) to reach more people and if that works from there once they have recovered interest by the players create games with a higher scope.
 
That seems to be true especially for the more retro focused revivals (like Streets of Rage 4, Panzer Dragoon or Wonder Boy/Monster Boy) which makes sense due to their sales ceiling being lower. But Virtua Fighter 5 Ultimate was done in-house (even if of course it wasn't an AAA project) and it seems like Sega was happy with results to the point of a new entry being something they have thought of. (interview with Seiji Aoki) where Seji Aoki mentioned that a new installment was being considered. I think the way that VF was treated seems like a great way for Sega to try to revive their franchises , with smaller scope games and partnering with other companies like Microsoft (Gamepass) or Sony (PS Plus) to reach more people and if that works from there once they have recovered interest by the players create games with a higher scope.
well if they're gonna bring back virtua fighter, there's been a lot of talk in the FGC about single player given the situation Street Fighter 5 found itself in and the lead up to SF6. VF5 was very barebones, but I guess that was the point. I don't expect them to do that again with a new VF
 
Something I have thought recently is Sega (of Japan) trying to revive a lot of their old franchises (Panzer,Sakura Wars, Virtua Fighter and even kind off Sonic Adventures with Sonic Forces) do we think that they will keep trying to revive their franchises trying to get a big seller again? Outside of Sonic , Sega Japan doesn't seem to have any other big seller worldwide even with the rise of popularity of Yakuza in the West.
pd: I'm talking only about console gaming not mobile gaming

SEGA have never had many massive world-wide hits. Their list of internally developed million-seller software is vanishingly small outside of the Sonic titles (pretty sure that Super Monkey Ball on the Gamecube is their single biggest WW seller that isn't a Sonic title).

I wouldn't say that there is even much of an internal effort going on TBH. Most of these revivals are just IP licensing out to completely external 3rd parties, with no involvement from SEGA whatsoever. The only games that SEGA even develop internally anymore are Sonic, Yakuza, Puyo Puyo and Super Monkey Ball now; with other side projects this generation including a cheap VF5 port, Valkyria Chronicles 4 and one other major effort with Sakura Wars that megabomba'd.
 
If anyone is wondering how Sega is performing mobile-wise, Sin Chronicle seems to be performing alright but, not that great with it. It is staying within the top 50 Grossing on Google Play in Japan. There's been more negative reviews than positive though so I'm not exactly expecting it to grow that well.

If we were to compare it to Heaven Burns Red from Wright Flyer Studios, that game came out a month earlier but, with much higher revenue staying higher being ranked within the top 10 until the past couple days and much better reception

The mobile game Sega is probably relying on is Hatsune Miku: Colorful Stage which regularly goes back to the top 10 for the first week of each month. Sensor Tower is estimating around $5 million revenue for February.
 
Oh absolutely! The SEGA AGES series (and its 3DS predecessor) was absolutely incredible while it lasted! M2 did an incredible job with all of those releases... which is why it was so maddening that they killed it off after one series of disappointing sales with games that had mostly been re-released countless times before!! (And this was even after they teased us with M2-made re-releases of Dreamcast titles as part of a proposed SEGA AGES Wave 2!!! Mother FUCKERS!!! 😡)
Yeah I bought every single one on 3DS (half on sale to be fair) but zero on Switch because I am just I'm just not buying Mega Drive games again, and the prices were just too high for Master System games. And no 240p and no 3D on a larger clunkier console really means they'd be for TV play anyway.

They also screwed around with the physical collections and had exclusives on them after having bought all digitally, and then didn't release them all in the west?

Maybe I'd get a Switch physical compilation. But if they did mostly NEW platforms I'd have been all over it.
 
SEGA have never had many massive world-wide hits. Their list of internally developed million-seller software is vanishingly small outside of the Sonic titles (pretty sure that Super Monkey Ball on the Gamecube is their single biggest WW seller that isn't a Sonic title).
I think this is true especially after the Sega Genesis (which had some decent WW sellers like Streets of Rage), but Sega as a brand still is quite big even if it relies heavily on Sonic . I wonder if they could use the Sega brand and titles with more Western appeal to expand their local hits to Worldwide hits like Capcom has done. Also it also seems like their no-Switch approach outside of their more 'casual' games like Puyo Puyo/Super Monkey Ball and Sonic is hurting them when their biggest market is still Japan/Asia and Sega is still associated heavily with Nintendo outside of the Yakuza series. They seem to be in a weird middle point they are Asia/JP focused but don’t release their bigger games (outside of Sonic) in Asia/JP dominant platform.
I wouldn't say that there is even much of an internal effort going on TBH. Most of these revivals are just IP licensing out to completely external 3rd parties, with no involvement from SEGA whatsoever. The only games that SEGA even develop internally anymore are Sonic, Yakuza, Puyo Puyo and Super Monkey Ball now; with other side projects this generation including a cheap VF5 port, Valkyria Chronicles 4 and one other major effort with Sakura Wars that megabomba'd.
There is also Phantasy Star Online 2 which being a MMO takes quite a lot of resources (in fact one of the four Sega Japan studios seem to be focused only on PSO2+a couple of mobile games). I wonder how much Yakuza/Judgement being a yearly series affects Sega output , CS1 R&D/Asia & Japan Studio Div. 1 seems to always being busy and the only release titles from Yakuza and a couple of minor projects like Super Monkey Ball:Monkey Mania and VF5U. This leaves CS2 R&D/Asia & Japan Studio Div. 2 to release most of Sega console output outside of Yakuza and they seem to be quite hit or miss in the last couple of years with none of the non-Sonic titles catching on.
 
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SEGA have never had many massive world-wide hits. Their list of internally developed million-seller software is vanishingly small outside of the Sonic titles (pretty sure that Super Monkey Ball on the Gamecube is their single biggest WW seller that isn't a Sonic title).
Virtua Fighter 1, 2 and 4 all broke 1 million sold. Crazy Taxi did over 2 million. Jet Set Radio broke 1 million with its Steam re-release.
And these are just the games I can remember.
 
Virtua Fighter 1, 2 and 4 all broke 1 million sold. Crazy Taxi did over 2 million. Jet Set Radio broke 1 million with its Steam re-release.
And these are just the games I can remember.
In Virtua Figher 2 case I have only found that 500k copies were bundled with the console (source) it could have sold more during Saturn lifespan but there is no official numbers that I know of.
Virtua Fighter 4 is the only case I have found of the VF series selling 1M outside of Japan with 1M units sold in USA. (source)
When it comes to Super Monkey Ball we only know that the second game had sold 730k by July 2006 (source) with the whole franchise having sold 1.1M units only.
Crazy Taxi sold 2.2M (in the USA) so it seems to be the best selling Sega developed IP outside of Sonic.
Do you have any source for VF 1 or Jet Set Radio numbers? I couldn't find anything outside of SteamSpy for Jet Set Radio and arcade numbers/revenue for VF1.
pd: I know I have only talked about USA numbers but sadly I couldn't find UE or other regions numbers which could change a lot the sales numbers, also NFL 2K5 sold 3M in the US but I didnt know if it's considered a Sega IP.
 
Sega is a riddle to me. Over the years I have played many Sega games that I think are great. This started in the arcades during the 80's, then on the Genesis, and then on other platforms after Sega left the hardware business. I do not understand why Sonic is really their only big seller. They have a lot of great games. Why don't they sell more?

I suspect it is because Tom Kalinske is the only employee they ever had that understood marketing. He made Sonic a big name, and that's why it's still a big name. Maybe their business side actually has no clue which of their games are the good ones. That is another possibility. Their business side has always held them back, and I suspect that is still the case (although marketing is also the responsibility of the business side). It's like they have all of this wasted potential. They can make great games (and this was doubly true when they were in the hardware business) but they just can't run the business effectively to take advantage of their talent.

Imagine if Nintendo had never figured out how to market Breath of the Wild or Animal Crossing. That seems to be the kind of predicament that Sega is in. I remember that Nintendo made BotW the entire focus of their 2016 E3 display. They knew they had a great game, and they marketed the hell out of it. (Good for them!) Sega needs to figure out what their good games are and how to market them.
 
Sega is a riddle to me. Over the years I have played many Sega games that I think are great. This started in the arcades during the 80's, then on the Genesis, and then on other platforms after Sega left the hardware business. I do not understand why Sonic is really their only big seller. They have a lot of great games. Why don't they sell more?

I suspect it is because Tom Kalinske is the only employee they ever had that understood marketing. He made Sonic a big name, and that's why it's still a big name. Maybe their business side actually has no clue which of their games are the good ones. That is another possibility. Their business side has always held them back, and I suspect that is still the case (although marketing is also the responsibility of the business side). It's like they have all of this wasted potential. They can make great games (and this was doubly true when they were in the hardware business) but they just can't run the business effectively to take advantage of their talent.

Imagine if Nintendo had never figured out how to market Breath of the Wild or Animal Crossing. That seems to be the kind of predicament that Sega is in. I remember that Nintendo made BotW the entire focus of their 2016 E3 display. They knew they had a great game, and they marketed the hell out of it. (Good for them!) Sega needs to figure out what their good games are and how to market them.
I think the biggest issue regarding Sega (Japan) is that they don't have a mass market IP. Sonic is that hence he still has appeal. Zelda and Animal Crossing also has that. not many other Sega (Japan) IPs have that

they're working to solve the problem, but that's a task fallen to Creative Assembly than Sega Japan. not to mention Total War and Football Manager has more reach than damn never every Sega JP IP
 
I think the biggest issue regarding Sega (Japan) is that they don't have a mass market IP. Sonic is that hence he still has appeal. Zelda and Animal Crossing also has that. not many other Sega (Japan) IPs have that
His point is more Sega inability to market their IPs to set up them to success than the IPs themselves . I think his compassion with Nintendo is flawed because none of Sega IPs outside of Sonic have had Zelda/Animal Crossing potential but a lot of them have had potential to be the biggest or one of the big ones of their genre but none (bar Puyo Puyo) have been able to. The most well known example being Virtua Fighter being once the king of 3D fighters, but there is also cases like Monkey Ball which was a hit with the first trilogy games, and it could easily been a top plataformer (outside of Nintendo ones) due to how unique and plain fun of a concept it is.


I personally thing that it isn't only marketing of the IPs that have hurt them, a lot has to do with the games themselves and how they approached their development with a lot of their franchises going dormant for far too long killing the momentum , games that just aren't good or interesting for the potential playerbase , rushed games and bad platform decisions. But there have been instances of franchises like Yakuza with a lot bigger potential sales wise in the West which were affected by poor Sega marketing.


Again I'm only talking about Sega Japan, Atlus and Sega Europe have been able to make all their IPs grow even if there have been some misteps but that's normal of almost any company.
 
His point is more Sega inability to market their IPs to set up them to success than the IPs themselves . I think his compassion with Nintendo is flawed because none of Sega IPs outside of Sonic have had Zelda/Animal Crossing potential but a lot of them have had potential to be the biggest or one of the big ones of their genre but none (bar Puyo Puyo) have been able to. The most well known example being Virtua Fighter being once the king of 3D fighters, but there is also cases like Monkey Ball which was a hit with the first trilogy games, and it could easily been a top plataformer (outside of Nintendo ones) due to how unique and plain fun of a concept it is.


I personally thing that it isn't only marketing of the IPs that have hurt them, a lot has to do with the games themselves and how they approached their development with a lot of their franchises going dormant for far too long killing the momentum , games that just aren't good or interesting for the potential playerbase , rushed games and bad platform decisions. But there have been instances of franchises like Yakuza with a lot bigger potential sales wise in the West which were affected by poor Sega marketing.


Again I'm only talking about Sega Japan, Atlus and Sega Europe have been able to make all their IPs grow even if there have been some misteps but that's normal of almost any company.
I do think Sega, over the decades, has made a lot of great games. I compare them to Nintendo, because they too have made a lot of great games over the course of decades. But Nintendo's business side is solid, maybe the most solid there is in gaming. Sega's business side is trash and it always has been.

There are Sega games out there with big selling potential. For example, I like Puyo Puyo Tetris more than Mario Kart 8 or Super Smash Bros Ultimate (which are also great games btw, but Puyo Puyo Tetris is better). I am not alone. I've had several friends come over and then say they want to buy a Switch after playing Puyo Puyo Tetris. Sonic Mania is such a good game, that it should sell like one of the more popular 2D Mario games. But it isn't even selling half that much.

And all of this is just the recent stuff. Sega has made a ton of great games over the years that they didn't capitalize on properly at the time and they don't properly capitalize on now. I would love a collection of their greatest arcade hits. Where the hell is that? I think they could also rerelease several of their better Saturn and Dreamcast games and get pretty good sales off of them. They could also revive old IP with a good budget and develop the games in house instead of outsourcing their old IP. Sega is like a goldmine of wasted potential.

Nintendo actually believes in the ability of their developers, and they market the hell out of the games they develop in house. Not every game that Nintendo develops in house is a grand slam, but they market them all that way, and when they do get a grand slam then their sales soar. Sega seems to have no clue what their good games are, and they don't seem to even realize when their developers make a great game. I think they could be a lot more successful if they could just learn to realize what their hit games are and market them more effectively.
 
According to this article, the Virtua Fighter series is at 18 million. 10 million of that coming from the PS4 game.

That would probably make Sega Japan's 2nd biggest IP, but is still massively lower than Sonic. Is there any company with such a distance to their biggest IP and 2nd biggest like Sega Japan?
 
According to this article, the Virtua Fighter series is at 18 million. 10 million of that coming from the PS4 game.

That would probably make Sega Japan's 2nd biggest IP, but is still massively lower than Sonic. Is there any company with such a distance to their biggest IP and 2nd biggest like Sega Japan?
Counting downloads from PS Plus isn't the best way to mesure the success of games but if Sony paid for the copies I guess it counts. I still don't know if Virtua Fighter is the 2nd best selling though , Puyo Puyo according to Sega has sold 35M (since Sega bought the IP) but like VF that counts downloads. Also when it comes to difference between 1st and 2nd best selling IP it's Game Freak (no need to explain it lol) but when it comes to big companies that develop multiple IPs it probably is. (but I think this speaks more about Sonic popularity than anything)
 
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Counting downloads from PS Plus isn't the best way to mesure the success of games but if Sony paid for the copies I guess it counts. I still don't know if Virtua Fighter is the 2nd best selling though , Puyo Puyo according to Sega has sold 35M (since Sega bought the IP) but like VF that counts downloads. Also when it comes to difference between 1st and 2nd best selling IP it's Game Freak (no need to explain it lol) but when it comes to big companies that develop multiple IPs it probably is. (but I think this speaks more about Sonic popularity than anything)
Yeah fair point. Even then, I don't even think anyone would have expected VF to be that much. Puyo Puyo is a good one, but I wasn't sure if Sega Japan actually owned the IP.

Honestly, even if you took out the 10 million, VF would still be up there with 8 million. Sakura Wars was another big Sega Japan IP, but even that was only around 4.5 million until the reboot. It is notably a multimedia franchise though.

Yakuza would definitely be up there. Also one thing to note that Sonic isn't just platformer, it does actually enter quite a few genres.
 
Crazy Taxi and Jet Set Radio are potentially going to be rebooted as F2P Game as a Service "Super Games". I think the last time Sega did something with Crazy Taxi was a mobile game, Crazy Taxi was a big hit for Sega on the Dreamcast and in arcades but I'm skeptical that Sega will have licensed music in the reboot. Jet Set Radio reboot is an intriguing idea, they could get some of that Splatoon and Fortnite audience if they go with Switch, PC and mobile and might also get that Japanese PS5 audience that loves F2P games.
 
Sonic Origins on Steam uses Denuvo. Ugh. The general PC gamer probably doesn't care so I don't see a sales impact.

 
Sonic Origins on Steam uses Denuvo. Ugh. The general PC gamer probably doesn't care so I don't see a sales impact.


Denuvo hasn’t proven to affect sales in any negative way and outside of one person nobody active cracks denuvo so it avoids piracy almost 100% during the first months of the product , I don’t see why companies would stop using Denuvo even if it’s bad for us the players, other than avoiding paying the denuvo fee.
 
Sega puts Denuvo on every game they sell these days, even things like the late Puyo Puyo Tetris port. I get the impression they might simply have a bulk deal?
 
Sega delisting digital standalone versions of Sonic games that are in Sonic Origins. Ages and NSO Expansion Pack versions will stay.


After this, there will likely be no legal way of buying the original version of Sonic 3 other than on original hardware.
 


SEGA going to announce something on June 3rd. It's probably more Mega Drive/Genesis stuff as Sega knows they can still count on that.
 
What do you think of potential (outsourced) saturn/dreamcast remakes ?? Like…

- Nights (including Christmas expansion)
- Burning Rangers
- Crazy Taxi 1/2
- Jet Set Radio
- Sonic Adventure 1/2
- Shining Force 3
- Panzer Dragoon Saga
- Skies of Arcadia
- Space Channel 5
- Samba de Amigo
- Sakura Wars 1-4
- Virtua On
- Clockwork Knight 1/2
- Daytona USA/Rally Championship

Don’t think they will touch Virtua Fighter early titles, in fact, iirc, some of them are playable in Yakuza titles.

But imo, they have material to remake for at least 3 years.
 
with Jet Set Radio and Crazy Taxi being turned into bigger budget GaaS games, those are out. out of all of those, Panzer Dragoon may or may not continue given the disappointment of the first couple of remakes. Sonic would just be ports on systems they're not on. Skies of Arcadia has the most potential for a remake

Sakura Wars better hope someone at Sega loves the franchise still cause that shit's iced
 
with Jet Set Radio and Crazy Taxi being turned into bigger budget GaaS games, those are out. out of all of those, Panzer Dragoon may or may not continue given the disappointment of the first couple of remakes. Sonic would just be ports on systems they're not on. Skies of Arcadia has the most potential for a remake

Sakura Wars better hope someone at Sega loves the franchise still cause that shit's iced
Yes, I forget to mention they can also just simple go for some remasters, I mean, Sonic Adventure, Jet Set Radio, Crazy Taxi were already remastered for gen 7 consoles (crazy taxi even is available for phones). They can re-release those titles on Switch and PS4/5.

If I had to bet hard, my guessed for the near future are Nights and Burning Rangers remakes. Two Saturn gems that screams for a good remake.
 
I could see a Sonic Adventure Collection of the remastered PS360 versions ported to current consoles. Maybe also Generations Ultimate following up on Colors Ultimate. I don't think they'll bother with any of the Sonic games in between though, they're just not well regarded enough to warrant the effort probably. Maybe we'll see the GBA games on NSO some day.

That said, I doubt this is Okunari's project. That'll likely be something line wide (new Sega Ages line, more NSO platforms, new microsconsole, etc). Anything Sonic specific will be led from Sonic Pillar in Cali.
 
I'd like an Unleashed Ultimate. despite its flaws, it still has a lot of fans, for good reason. as does Sonic Heroes. merge Sonic Adventure 1, 2, and Heroes and Unleashed, Generations
 
I'd like an Unleashed Ultimate. despite its flaws, it still has a lot of fans, for good reason. as does Sonic Heroes. merge Sonic Adventure 1, 2, and Heroes and Unleashed, Generations
Unleashed Ultimate would be very cool.

EDIT: Sonic Frontiers gameplay teaser. More reveals coming in June via IGN.
 
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double post, but I gotta say, I'm not too plussed by the video. Sega just made an unnecessary hill for them to climb
 
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