Nintendo is going into next gen with a lot of momentum... and still several cards to play

BTB123 · Mar 28, 2024

StardustTraveler said:
Can you expand on your first point? How did Howard Lincoln mismanage Nintendo of America, in your view? I know the N64 and Gamecube performed poorly compared to PlayStation, but that was also true in Japan, not just the American market. So it's not obvious to me that NoA in particular was doing badly.

He created that "Nintendo is for kids" image, proudly at that, among many other shitty things.

Tokuiten · Mar 28, 2024

randomengine said:
We have been hearing for years that all Nintendo has to do is sell a more powerful Switch and they will be successful. While I think that conventional wisdom is partially true, if all Nintendo does is provide a Switch Pro, they will not only miss an opportunity to increase software sales, they will in the longer run shorten the lifecycle of Switch 2.

PS5 Pro developer verdict: ‘I didn’t meet a single person that understood the point of it’

This article has been making the rounds recently and it has me thinking. If a PS5 Pro is more or less dead in the water (because it won't drive much software sales), then Switch 2 will struggle similarly. Not totally, but similarly. What Switch 2 has going for it is that Switch 1 was so much less powerful, meaning that Switch 2 can have more games on it that it didn't have before.

You see, the main sales driver for Switch software is this basic hook - play your console games portably. That's why a lot of people have decided to make Switch their home for many types of games and we know platform stickiness is really potent.

So if Nintendo sells a Switch 2 as a Switch Pro (just more powerful with no other gimmick), then Switch 1 holders have no reason to buy more (and older) Switch games...unless there is a concerted effort to pull performance of old games forward.

So what are the factors that will drive more software sales

Buy this Switch 2 game that couldn't be on Switch 1

Buy old Switch 1 games because now they look better and perform better on Switch 2

That's not enough. While it may drive Switch 2 sales, and Switch 2 software sales, what is really important is the back library.

What Nintendo needs is the following:

A Switch 2 feature that will make users want to go back and replay their old games or buy old Switch games on the new hardware.

If Switch 2 has such a feature, it will help drive software sales. Playing all your games portably was the lynchpin of Switch 1 success. However strong that additional feature is will determine the success of the new system more so than just the additional power upgrade.

Switch 2 will be so much more powerful than Switch 1 that your entire point is moot and any comparison to the PS5 Pro makes no sense. The latter will slightly boost fps and resolution. The former will open up a whole new generation of games, not just in terms of graphics but also gameplay mechanics that require more power. Heck, it might be the biggest jump in power between two generations that ever occured with the help of the rumored DLSS.

That aside, we've talked about "what new feature could Switch 2 offer beyond just more power?" plenty of times and many agree that there will probably be something. Speaking directly to your point: "a feature that will make users want to play old Switch 1-games on the new hardware" - that's basically what DLSS could achieve. But even beyond that, there's a lot of features that could be added, who knows. The one thing I'm willing to put my hand in the fire for is that Switch 2 will be successful with "just" more power, unless Nintendo royally screws up something.

Post automatically merged: Mar 28, 2024

duvjones said:
I don't think that it the point, I think that the argument that @randomengine is trying to make, one that I have pondered personally, is to ask if in the current market does making a new Switch platform that is the old platform with more performance going to be enough for the market to take notice outside of niches.

We can all sit around and say that it would but I honestly don't see it without Nintendo doing something to make the platform marketable. They want that casual money, and mobile isn't going to provide a space for that as it grows older. I wonder what they do but just juicing the performance will likely not do much and to add to the complication, the old platform continues to exist... the Switch has yet to see rock bottom, and it's slowing down slower than expected.
I don't see a panic to a new platform at this point.

So what made you not think the same for PS4 -> PS5? Why would it be different for Nintendo?

Danny · Mar 28, 2024

Aostia82 said:
It could be
surely one "negative" (for me, not necessarily in terms of business for them LOL) side of the hybrid concept is that they probably are going to experiment less with hardware

but of course until they will stay a "monopoly" (actual or de-facto) in the dedicated hybrid segment, with all their strong IP (development pipeline) focused only on that form factor/hardware specs/product generation they should be safer, in terms of average hardware numbers sold in each generation

Yeah and a number of factors will contribute to Nintendo success with Switch 2, how strong will third party support be for the system? What is the future of Xbox (Is it possible that a lot of Microsoft games will come to Switch 2 for instance?). How consistent will Nintendo first party releases on the Switch 2 be? How will Nintendo price the system? (Will they go with a lower price and subsidize hardware sales at the beginning to grow their market share more quickly than with a more costly launch price?)

Phenom08 · Mar 28, 2024

Switch 2 won't be just a stronger Switch because Nintendo will always chase the blue ocean/new audience. Labo and Ring Fit Adventure were the Switch's attempts alongside Nintendo continuing to make their games more accessible like MK8 including auto steer. Switch 2 will definitely have something that goes for that and it may not even be initially obvious.

Tialo · Mar 28, 2024

Phenom08 said:
Switch 2 won't be just a stronger Switch because Nintendo will always chase the blue ocean/new audience. Labo and Ring Fit Adventure were the Switch's attempts alongside Nintendo continuing to make their games more accessible like MK8 including auto steer. Switch 2 will definitely have something that goes for that and it may not even be initially obvious.

I also expect some extra features and ideas for Switch 2 (beside of the usual hardware and technical upgrade). But important point: These new features should NOT cause big disadvantages for the base hardware (as the expensive WiiU tablet did for example).

Kmds · Mar 28, 2024

Danny said:
I think Nintendo's goal is probably to become more like Playstation. Playstation are in a position where they know that every new Playstation iteration will sell well, some will sell a bit less (PS3) and some will sell a bit more (PS2), but they are all expected to sell pretty similar. Nintendo on the other hand usually have massive differences in sales numbers from different console generations. The goal of iterating on Switch is probably to make it easier to sell more similar between new console generations. Lets say that the Switch 2 sells between 80-100 million units in total, a strong decline from Switch but still enough sales to have a healthy user base for new Nintendo games. And a far cry from the decline Wii U saw compared to the Wii (A roughly 90 % decline) from one generation to the next.

It's unlikely to sell less than 120M imo. The Switch 2 will most likely outsell the OG Switch in the territories of Europe and Other so that alone is at minimum 60M combined imo but it'll do better than that. If there's a decline for Switch 2, imo it will come mainly from NA and Japan and the OG Switch will be No.1 in both so the chances of it selling less than 120M in 8 years are very very low imo.

I think it's more likely to get closer to 200M with growth in all regions than to sell less than 120M.

Danny · Mar 28, 2024

Kmds said:
It's unlikely to sell less than 120M imo. The Switch 2 will most likely outsell the OG Switch in the territories of Europe and Other so that alone is at minimum 60M combined imo but it'll do better than that. If there's a decline for Switch 2, imo it will come mainly from NA and Japan and the OG Switch will be No.1 in both so the chances of it selling less than 120M in 8 years are very very low imo.

I think it's more likely to get closer to 200M with growth in all regions than to sell less than 120M.

Interesting, i wouldn't rule out Switch 2 selling equal or more compared to Switch 1, but what are the factors you think point to Switch 2 doing better in general?

Herb Alpert · Mar 28, 2024

I think it's a bit premature when we still haven't seen anything from the device and how it will be marketed...

Djehuty · Mar 28, 2024

Terrell said:
Not sure you asked for a full-blown syllabus on the subject, but... prepare for an education.

Howard Lincoln was terrible (or, Why Nintendo's golden years weren't so golden)

So... I said something that touched a nerve in another thread that I was requested to follow up on. I wish I hadn't, this went into WAY more detail than I intended. But it's a thing now, so... here we go. Howard Lincoln, former Senior VP (1983-1994) and Chairman of Nintendo of America...

famiboards.com

Yeah, I got so fed up with the uncritical praise of "the Lincoln/Yamauchi era" of Nintendo that I wrote an essay back in 2021 to read the man for filth so I didn't have repeat myself anymore. LOL

That era was carried by its creatives yamuichi and lincoln sowed the seeds of what came to pass.

Terrell · Mar 28, 2024

Phenom08 said:
Switch 2 won't be just a stronger Switch because Nintendo will always chase the blue ocean/new audience. Labo and Ring Fit Adventure were the Switch's attempts alongside Nintendo continuing to make their games more accessible like MK8 including auto steer. Switch 2 will definitely have something that goes for that and it may not even be initially obvious.

This is speaking as though they’ve already lost the audience they chased with Switch. Switch is already realistically gunning for the crown of the best-selling dedicated gaming hardware platform in history and has major audience engagement. What is left to chase that a more powerful Switch won’t catch? And if there is more of an audience left to chase outside of that, is it worth potentially letting go of the audience they’ve already caught in pursuit of it?

Mekanos · Mar 28, 2024

Terrell said:
This is speaking as though they’ve already lost the audience they chased with Switch. Switch is already realistically gunning for the crown of the best-selling dedicated gaming hardware platform in history and has major audience engagement. What is left to chase that a more powerful Switch won’t catch? And if there is more of an audience left to chase outside of that, is it worth potentially letting go of the audience they’ve already caught in pursuit of it?

While I agree Nintendo realistically has already gotten the crown of hardware sales, that hasn't stopped them before from investing in a new gimmick. The DS led to the 3DS (one could argue to their detriment) despite nearly eclipsing the PS2 in sales. Hopefully it's not something that will be an albatross around their neck and devs won't have to figure out how to work out.

StardustTraveler · Mar 28, 2024

Terrell said:
Not sure you asked for a full-blown syllabus on the subject, but... prepare for an education.

Howard Lincoln was terrible (or, Why Nintendo's golden years weren't so golden)

So... I said something that touched a nerve in another thread that I was requested to follow up on. I wish I hadn't, this went into WAY more detail than I intended. But it's a thing now, so... here we go. Howard Lincoln, former Senior VP (1983-1994) and Chairman of Nintendo of America...

famiboards.com

Yeah, I got so fed up with the uncritical praise of "the Lincoln/Yamauchi era" of Nintendo that I wrote an essay back in 2021 to read the man for filth so I didn't have repeat myself anymore. LOL

Thank you, that was very in-depth. I knew some parts of that story like Jeff Spangenburg poaching staff from his old haunt at Acclaim to create Retro, but the stuff about Lincoln at the 1993 congressional video game violence hearings were news to me.

theprodigy · Mar 28, 2024

Mekanos said:
While I agree Nintendo realistically has already gotten the crown of hardware sales, that hasn't stopped them before from investing in a new gimmick. The DS led to the 3DS (one could argue to their detriment) despite nearly eclipsing the PS2 in sales. Hopefully it's not something that will be an albatross around their neck and devs won't have to figure out how to work out.

I feel like the 3DS is just reason for Nintendo not to chase gimmicks for the sake of having a gimmick

Mekanos · Mar 28, 2024

theprodigy said:
I feel like the 3DS is just reason for Nintendo not to chase gimmicks for the sake of having a gimmick

Hey, I agree with you! But you can never be certain with Nintendo. I would be more than happy to just have a beefier, backwards compatible Switch.

BTB123 · Mar 28, 2024

Kmds said:
It's unlikely to sell less than 120M imo. The Switch 2 will most likely outsell the OG Switch in the territories of Europe and Other so that alone is at minimum 60M combined imo but it'll do better than that. If there's a decline for Switch 2, imo it will come mainly from NA and Japan and the OG Switch will be No.1 in both so the chances of it selling less than 120M in 8 years are very very low imo.

I think it's more likely to get closer to 200M with growth in all regions than to sell less than 120M.

The Switch is definitely not going to outsell the DS in NA.

Djehuty · Mar 29, 2024

theprodigy said:
I feel like the 3DS is just reason for Nintendo not to chase gimmicks for the sake of having a gimmick

Wii u is a better example of that, they decide the gimmick then told the game makers way later on, smart idea, in the end Bassicaly no game used it well.

Best usage was an inventory screen.

Jbone916 · Mar 29, 2024

Of all Nintendo’s consoles, only a couple were basically just “more powerful” versions of the same thing:

FC/NES -> SFC/SNES
GB -> GBA

You could make an argument that DS -> 3DS fits too since the 3D feature was more of an add-on then a significant modification.

Either way, all of these examples have 1 thing in common: The successors were less successful than their predecessors.

I feel that if Nintendo desires to achieve a similar or greater level of success as the Switch, then the next console can’t just be a simple “more powerful” Switch - it needs to have some new feature or “killer app” to drive interest outside of core fans, something to help justify a new purchase to people who already have a Switch and don’t care much about graphics.

For PS2, this was the DVD functionality.
For DS, this was a touchscreen.
For Wii, this was motion controls.
For Switch, this was hybrid gaming.

(Of course the game library and price point are critical too, but that’s obvious!)

awng782 · Mar 29, 2024

Jbone916 said:
Of all Nintendo’s consoles, only a couple were basically just “more powerful” versions of the same thing:

FC/NES -> SFC/SNES
GB -> GBA

You could make an argument that DS -> 3DS fits too since the 3D feature was more of an add-on then a significant modification.

Either way, all of these examples have 1 thing in common: The successors were less successful than their predecessors.

I feel that if Nintendo desires to achieve a similar or greater level of success as the Switch, then the next console can’t just be a simple “more powerful” Switch - it needs to have some new feature or “killer app” to drive interest outside of core fans, something to help justify a new purchase to people who already have a Switch and don’t care much about graphics.

For PS2, this was the DVD functionality.
For DS, this was a touchscreen.
For Wii, this was motion controls.
For Switch, this was hybrid gaming.

(Of course the game library and price point are critical too, but that’s obvious!)

GBA would have almost certainly outsold the GameBoy (or at least gotten very close to doing so) if it didn't get its lifecycle cut short by the NDS launching <4 years after its release.

Terrell · Mar 29, 2024

Mekanos said:
While I agree Nintendo realistically has already gotten the crown of hardware sales, that hasn't stopped them before from investing in a new gimmick. The DS led to the 3DS (one could argue to their detriment) despite nearly eclipsing the PS2 in sales. Hopefully it's not something that will be an albatross around their neck and devs won't have to figure out how to work out.

But the 3DS provided an abject lesson. Perhaps not in Japan, but elsewhere. They were trying to thread the needle of offering a follow-up that was very alike to the prior hardware while offering something new and fresh, and that ”new and fresh” flew like a lead fart and wasn’t worth the investment. I can’t think of anyone who was buying it because of the 3D, they were buying it because it was a better DS (demonstrated by the popularity of the 2DS later in its life). Nintendo is just lucky that the 3D feature didn’t alienate too many consumers outright (there were other factors that saw it diminish compared to DS that had little to do with the 3D aspect), but it did alienate a few developers, I’m all but sure of it.

And "it's Nintendo, you never know" is a roundabout way of saying that they never learn from past mistakes.

StardustTraveler said:
Thank you, that was very in-depth. I knew some parts of that story like Jeff Spangenburg poaching staff from his old haunt at Acclaim to create Retro, but the stuff about Lincoln at the 1993 congressional video game violence hearings were news to me.

It’s interesting to look at, because we’re maybe seeing a replay of that over at SIE, since they went the opposite direction, first giving the Western branches more autonomy and power, which eventually led to the whole if SIE being run out of California after Kutaragi's PS3 fumble, and now Sony Group president and COO Hiroki Totoki himself is stepping in a decade later to fill the interim CEO role this time with Jim Ryan's departure in 3 days, and Sony Group have intimated a displeasure with how poorly revenue was being converted to profit.

Jbone916 said:
Of all Nintendo’s consoles, only a couple were basically just “more powerful” versions of the same thing:

FC/NES -> SFC/SNES
GB -> GBA

You could make an argument that DS -> 3DS fits too since the 3D feature was more of an add-on then a significant modification.

Either way, all of these examples have 1 thing in common: The successors were less successful than their predecessors.

A few things:

GBA was not less successful, it was merely cut short by the arrival of the DS. For its 3 and a half years or so, its sales were obscenely high.
What about the move from N64 to Gamecube doesn't similarly describe it as a more powerful N64, other than it used discs, which would have likely been necessary at the time of its creation?
(most importantly) This is a "correlation equals causation" argument that strips out every other bit of potential causal information out to make the suggestion.

Astral_lion02 · Mar 29, 2024

Doing the same thing but more powerful is a strategy that is starting to show its limits with Sony and Microsoft.

PS5 and Xbox Series combined are struggling to match the previous generation.

Innovations are what moves the industry forward even though it doesn't work every time (innovations are always risk-taking).

In 2015/16, I am sure that some peoples would have said that Nintendo should come back to a classic TV console close to PS4/XB1 easpecially given how handhelds were view as a dying market back then.

cw_sasuke · Mar 29, 2024

Astral_lion02 said:
Doing the same thing but more powerful is a strategy that is starting to show its limits with Sony and Microsoft.

PS5 and Xbox Series combined are struggling to match the previous generation.

Innovations are what moves the industry forward even though it doesn't work every time (innovations are always risk-taking).

In 2015/16, I am sure that some peoples would have said that Nintendo should come back to a classic TV console close to PS4/XB1 easpecially given how handhelds were view as a dying market back then.

While this is true there is difference between a big hardware jump every 6-7 years and launching with big exclusive games compared to what Sony/MS doing is doing - a lot of cross-gen games and pretty much updating the hardware every 3 years.

Since the OG Switch launch Sony will have updated the internal hardware specs 3 times with PS4 Pro, PS5 and PS5 Pro this fall - while the Switch 2 still hasnt happened. The fact that the Switch is stll selling as well as it does in Year 8 despite all these new hardware updates from the competition and PC handhelds tells me that Nintendos Hybrid market has a higher ceiling and potential in general compared to what the competition is doing.

There will be innovation on Switch 2, but its not gonna be limited to hardware but the the OS, eShop and the new exclusive games. In the end its all about the software, no matter how great the hardware foundation is.

It took +3 years for the first real exclusive heavy hitters to release on Xbox/PS5 with Starfield and Spiderman 2. Meanwhile Switch 2 is rumored to launch with a mainline 3D Mario as well as having big guns like Kart X etc. ready for the first 18 months. Not even including the fact that all PS/Xbox games are expected to come to PC at day1(Xbox) or a bit later (Playstation). So yeah even taking hardware out of the picture, the demand and the necessity for a Nintendo system is following a different blueprint.

Tialo · Mar 29, 2024

Switch will have sold ~160M units in the end LTD. Even if we assume that Switch 2 will be down by 20% (comparable to NES-SNES-Transition), then this would still lead to 130M units for Switch 2. This will still be more successfull than Wii, GB, 3DS and each Sony Plattform except PS2. So I am sure that Nintendo would be pretty happy with such a result and such a healthy environment

Godzilla · Mar 29, 2024

Astral_lion02 said:
Doing the same thing but more powerful is a strategy that is starting to show its limits with Sony and Microsoft.

Isn't exactly what PC gaming is? And that one is growing.

PS5 and Series X/S won't match last gen because there's a ""new"" kid on the block that has been gaining traction step by step. PC is growing and that grows comes from a finite number of players, which is way more related to PS5/Xbox

Switch will still carry a much easier path of resistance since there's software you want that you can't get (legally) anywhere else (and said Software is based on HUGE IPs nowadays)

A lot of people still want consoles and will keep wanting them, i just feel Sony and Microsoft issues could be fixed with a bit of more diversity in terms of releases (more A and AA games to keep content flowing).

Anyway, i feel Nintendo saw this happening and started to pivot out of the gaming scene too, or diversify their investment would be a better term, with movies, theme parks, etc... They are just reaping the rewards of building strong IPs which will, in return, help their software division.

Jbone916 · Mar 29, 2024

Terrell said:
A few things:

GBA was not less successful, it was merely cut short by the arrival of the DS. For its 3 and a half years or so, its sales were obscenely high.

What about the move from N64 to Gamecube doesn't similarly describe it as a more powerful N64, other than it used discs, which would have likely been necessary at the time of its creation?

(most importantly) This is a "correlation equals causation" argument that strips out every other bit of potential causal information out to make the suggestion.

1. The GBA was certainly quite successful, but let’s remember that the reason Nintendo released the DS so quickly was due to the PSP. It’s possible that even without the DS that the GBA would’ve fallen off somewhat quickly due to competition. Additionally, you could argue that while the Pokémon games were the most popular games on both GB and GBA, the former sold significantly more than the latter.

2. Yeah, I think that’s a fair argument despite the big change in media format and controller. (It still follows the trend of predecessor > successor).

3. For sure - each of these examples has additional/alternative explanations such as increased competition (Mega Drive/Genesis for SFC/SNES, smartphones for 3DS). However, I still think there is some insight to be gained here - when a pattern repeats 3-4x like this, it’s fair to argue that there is something happening beyond coincidence.

Terrell · Mar 29, 2024

Astral_lion02 said:
Doing the same thing but more powerful is a strategy that is starting to show its limits with Sony and Microsoft.

PS5 and Xbox Series combined are struggling to match the previous generation.

Innovations are what moves the industry forward even though it doesn't work every time (innovations are always risk-taking).

In 2015/16, I am sure that some peoples would have said that Nintendo should come back to a classic TV console close to PS4/XB1 easpecially given how handhelds were view as a dying market back then.

Sony and Microsoft have bigger problems that have nothing to do with hardware iteration that cause their woes.

Hardware shortages brought about by COVID-adjacent supply issues
SIE's full-scale collapse in Japan (and the rest of Asia, but perhaps lesser)
Xbox's piss-poor market penetration outside of NA and UK
over-wrought development schedules that leave few games in the lineup
- the issue affecting both 1st-party and 3rd-party AAA lineups
an audience that does not fill the space between with smaller releases or indie games...
- because they buy the hardware for the big spectacle
- because the platform does a poor job of getting the audience engaged with that content

I'm sure I missed other factors here, but they are legion in comparison.

Jbone916 said:
1. The GBA was certainly quite successful, but let’s remember that the reason Nintendo released the DS so quickly was due to the PSP. It’s possible that even without the DS that the GBA would’ve fallen off somewhat quickly due to competition. Additionally, you could argue that while the Pokémon games were the most popular games on both GB and GBA, the former sold significantly more than the latter.

2. Yeah, I think that’s a fair argument despite the big change in media format and controller. (It still follows the trend of predecessor > successor).

3. For sure - each of these examples has additional/alternative explanations such as increased competition (Mega Drive/Genesis for SFC/SNES, smartphones for 3DS). However, I still think there is some insight to be gained here - when a pattern repeats 3-4x like this, it’s fair to argue that there is something happening beyond coincidence.

Conjecture is not fact.

And those slumps had something else in common that is likely more indicative of the pattern: issues with the software lineup. Be it Wii U, 3DS, Gamecube or N64, the struggle has been getting a software lineup that entices the consumer and either overcomes negative brand association or unappealing hardware. They all struggled with that in their own very specific and unique ways to varying degrees (which in all but one instance are closely reflected in the overall degree of how much their hardware sales diminished compared to their predecessors), but all of them did. Resolve that lack like the successful hardware platforms did, and like magic, the problem vanished every single time. If we must see the pattern that can be attributed to a single factor (which I still think oversimplifies the situation), similar but more performant hardware was the least of their concerns. It also better addresses the outlier of your theory that is the N64, given its bold new gaming paradigm led to weaker performance... because Sony hoovered up 3rd-party developers for their own platform.

In that respect, only SNES/SFC appears as an outlier but, as you rightly suggest, it being the very first hardware cycle where they had strong competition in both major sales markets played a part in that by comparison... because it led to more competition for 3rd-party releases. And even then, it was more of a stumble.

Danny · Mar 29, 2024

I think Nintendo will mostly make radical changes when it comes to Switch 2 OS, eshop etc, rather than a more hardware based gimmick change from Switch 1.

The problem with hardware based gimmicks such as Wii U gamepad is that they increase the cost of the hardware itself, and the hardware has to have a higher selling price. While just making radical changes to the Switch 2 system software doesn't lead to a rising cost on such a scale.

duvjones · Mar 29, 2024

Godzilla said:
Isn't exactly what PC gaming is? And that one is growing.

Going by Valve's numbers on common GPUs and CPUs over its platform, I wouldn't say that... what I would say is that the dynamics of PC gaming right now cover a wide swath of hardware configurations, and it is that wide aperture that gives it the growth.

As much as some folks chase a Threadripper/X3D rig with a 4090 with ram and SSD space to burn, that is truly a miniscule part of its market.
They have a number of developers in its space already that cover low end pretty consistently. It's also something of a note that the most popular titles in PC space when it comes to sales and revenue, cover a pretty wide range of hardware configurations deliberately.

Djehuty · Mar 30, 2024

Jbone916 said:
Of all Nintendo’s consoles, only a couple were basically just “more powerful” versions of the same thing:

FC/NES -> SFC/SNES
GB -> GBA

You could make an argument that DS -> 3DS fits too since the 3D feature was more of an add-on then a significant modification.

Either way, all of these examples have 1 thing in common: The successors were less successful than their predecessors.

I feel that if Nintendo desires to achieve a similar or greater level of success as the Switch, then the next console can’t just be a simple “more powerful” Switch - it needs to have some new feature or “killer app” to drive interest outside of core fans, something to help justify a new purchase to people who already have a Switch and don’t care much about graphics.

For PS2, this was the DVD functionality.
For DS, this was a touchscreen.
For Wii, this was motion controls.
For Switch, this was hybrid gaming.

(Of course the game library and price point are critical too, but that’s obvious!)

i think we are entering a new time in the industry, where the situation cant be compared to the past at all.

whatever patterns there are they belong in the garbage this gen from everything we've seen.

duvjones · Mar 30, 2024

Tokuiten said:
So what made you not think the same for PS4 -> PS5? Why would it be different for Nintendo?

A few reasons, the first is that you are talking about Nintendo.... they tend to look for the margin that is "good enough" performance than just high performance for the sake of it.
The transition to the PS5 hasn't been all sunshine and rainbows if you have been watching this forum any at all and part of that was the simple need to build an expensive device with the performance margins to match. I don't see success with an Nintendo Device that creeps into the $400 USD pricing range, for much of the same reasons that Sony is not doing so hot as of late, the gaming market is very price sensitive and at the $400 USD range, consumers are conscious about the buy.

Second, I kind of feel that gaming isn't focused in on social aspects for some time now and honestly, it feels like a good idea. Like it or not, Streetpass was wildly successful with folks accommodating the activity. Maybe that is me, but after the pandemic it feels like such a function that encourages folks to (as the kids put it) "touch grass" and be in social environments would be rather forward thinking.

Third, while Nintendo has the benefit of being left alone in the hybrid space... that is slowly closing and honestly I feel that hybrid alone isn't enough of a concept for continued success. I am rather convinced that only producing a new product that is "old platform only more powerful" doesn't really do much when others hybrid space can basically do that in their sleep and doing so will only invite comparison. I am also convinced that doing so will not allow for the kind of attachment that Nintendo thrives upon.... As I said before, what ever the Switch 2 is Nintendo needs to have it marketable, preferably to the outside-gaming world. "Bigger number better" will not be enough to do that alone.
Look at the discourse around the "PS5 Pro" at the moment... when even Developers are questioning the need of this rumored device's existence, you would have to take that seriously.

Rogue Agent · Mar 31, 2024

duvjones said:
Third, while Nintendo has the benefit of being left alone in the hybrid space... that is slowly closing and honestly I feel that hybrid alone isn't enough of a concept for continued success. I am rather convinced that only producing a new product that is "old platform only more powerful" doesn't really do much when others hybrid space can basically do that in their sleep and doing so will only invite comparison. I am also convinced that doing so will not allow for the kind of attachment that Nintendo thrives upon.... As I said before, what ever the Switch 2 is Nintendo needs to have it marketable, preferably to the outside-gaming world. "Bigger number better" will not be enough to do that alone.
Look at the discourse around the "PS5 Pro" at the moment... when even Developers are questioning the need of this rumored device's existence, you would have to take that seriously.

Sorry to jump in and I hope I'm not misunderstanding what you're saying here, but what others gaming companies are in the hybrid space? Isn't Switch the only console that demonstrates seamless hybrid play?

ILikeFeet · Mar 31, 2024

Depends on how you want to define "hybrid play". Because nearly all the pc tablets have a way to play on the TV. "Seamless" is something that varies between all of them. Personally, I don't count it as that's subjective

Danny · Mar 31, 2024

duvjones said:
A few reasons, the first is that you are talking about Nintendo.... they tend to look for the margin that is "good enough" performance than just high performance for the sake of it.
The transition to the PS5 hasn't been all sunshine and rainbows if you have been watching this forum any at all and part of that was the simple need to build an expensive device with the performance margins to match. I don't see success with an Nintendo Device that creeps into the $400 USD pricing range, for much of the same reasons that Sony is not doing so hot as of late, the gaming market is very price sensitive and at the $400 USD range, consumers are conscious about the buy.

Second, I kind of feel that gaming isn't focused in on social aspects for some time now and honestly, it feels like a good idea. Like it or not, Streetpass was wildly successful with folks accommodating the activity. Maybe that is me, but after the pandemic it feels like such a function that encourages folks to (as the kids put it) "touch grass" and be in social environments would be rather forward thinking.

Third, while Nintendo has the benefit of being left alone in the hybrid space... that is slowly closing and honestly I feel that hybrid alone isn't enough of a concept for continued success. I am rather convinced that only producing a new product that is "old platform only more powerful" doesn't really do much when others hybrid space can basically do that in their sleep and doing so will only invite comparison. I am also convinced that doing so will not allow for the kind of attachment that Nintendo thrives upon.... As I said before, what ever the Switch 2 is Nintendo needs to have it marketable, preferably to the outside-gaming world. "Bigger number better" will not be enough to do that alone.
Look at the discourse around the "PS5 Pro" at the moment... when even Developers are questioning the need of this rumored device's existence, you would have to take that seriously.

The problem is that they have no other options, they have left the home console market, they have merged their handheld and home console divisions. Its difficult to see what possible gimmicks could be implemented on Switch 2 hardware that would lead to any possible boost, the risk is that gimmicks will just increase the price of the hardware and be unappealing, like it was for the Wii U.

Its likely that an iterative Switch 2 will decline from Switch 1, but its still the best bet Nintendo has in the market.

The hope Nintendo has is that with the increased popularity of the Nintendo brand since the Switch era, the birth of Nintendo movies and theme parks could lead an iterative ''stronger but same'' Switch 2 concept to still lead to around 100 million total units sale for the system over a 8 year lifespan.

duvjones · Mar 31, 2024

Rogue Agent said:
Sorry to jump in and I hope I'm not misunderstanding what you're saying here, but what others gaming companies are in the hybrid space? Isn't Switch the only console that demonstrates seamless hybrid play?

Yes but the gulf between that and say, the Steam Deck, is not that far. On top of that their has been a raft of PC handhelds since. Alone they mean very little, but as a block they are rather hard to ignore.

Danny said:
Its difficult to see what possible gimmicks could be implemented on Switch 2 hardware that would lead to any possible boost, the risk is that gimmicks will just increase the price of the hardware and be unappealing, like it was for the Wii U.

I would rather that they do something than nothing considering that they have the reserves to experiment. Sure that led to the Wii U failure but that kind of lateral thinking is what birthed the Wii. A device that the industry still doesn't know what to do with and captured the imagination. The question is what?

Phenom08 · Mar 31, 2024

It doesn't matter how difficult for us it is to come up with something new for Switch 2 because it's not our job. Nintendo certainly will because it represents an opportunity to grow. They will never just remain stagnant. The WiiUs failure had nothing to do with the gimmick lol, it was due to horrific software support. If WiiU had all of it's support and 3DS's support then it would have certainly sold far better or are we actually entertaining the idea that Nintendo fans would have just disappeared because they just refuse to use a controller with a screen to play their precious Mario Kart, Zelda, and Pokemon? WiiU is a victim of Nintendos.

BTB123 · Mar 31, 2024

Phenom08 said:
It doesn't matter how difficult for us it is to come up with something new for Switch 2 because it's not our job. Nintendo certainly will because it represents an opportunity to grow. They will never just remain stagnant. The WiiUs failure had nothing to do with the gimmick lol, it was due to horrific software support. If WiiU had all of it's support and 3DS's support then it would have certainly sold far better or are we actually entertaining the idea that Nintendo fans would have just disappeared because they just refuse to use a controller with a screen to play their precious Mario Kart, Zelda, and Pokemon? WiiU is a victim of Nintendos.

Do not act like the Wii U flopped only due to one specific reason. The horrific software support was only the nail in the coffin after the terrible reveal and garbage marketing in addition to high price.

The gamepad absolutely damaged the Wii U. Did you forget it's reveal? It was all about the gamepad, the new controller. So much so that many people thought it was just that, a peripheral for the Wii. The issue of course was front and foremost the way it was marketed, terribly and confusingly, but without it the whole thing would have been a lot clearer to anyone who got confused.

Anecdotal but could have been the case for others too: I personally never heard of the Wii U until seeing one in 2015 on display in an electronics store. After being curious at first the gamepad immediately had me confused and I left.

In the end it barely added anything except raising the price of the Wii U. And it broke much faster than a normal controller.

It was one of several reasons the Wii U failed out the gate.

Phenom08 · Mar 31, 2024

BTB123 said:
Do not act like the Wii U flopped only due to one specific reason. The horrific software support was only the nail in the coffin after the terrible reveal and garbage marketing in addition to high price.

The gamepad absolutely damaged the Wii U. Did you forget it's reveal? It was all about the gamepad, the new controller. So much so that many people thought it was just that, a peripheral for the Wii. The issue of course was front and foremost the way it was marketed, terribly and confusingly, but without it the whole thing would have been a lot clearer to anyone who got confused.

Anecdotal but could have been the case for others too: I personally never heard of the Wii U until seeing one in 2015 on display in an electronics store. After being curious at first the gamepad immediately had me confused and I left.

In the end it barely added anything except raising the price of the Wii U. And it broke much faster than a normal controller.

It was one of several reasons the Wii U failed out the gate.

The primary reason was certainly the games. Again are you entertaining the idea that if Pokemon Sun & Moon released for WiiU and 3DS never existed, Pokemon fans wouldn't have flocked to WiiU? Marketing the console isn't the only marketing a console receives, there would have been several more marketing campaigns for the games! Switch doesn't only get hardware marketing, each tentpole release is an opportunity to market the console. You are literally telling me millions of Nintendo consumers would have ceased to exist.

Everything you said was said about Switch, and revisionist tells us Switch was brilliant now lol. Bad controls (Joycon drift, Joycons falling off the rails) and overpriced along with paid online. Switch was never expected to do so well and was literally viewed the same as WiiU. The difference is Switch got Nintendo's undivided attention, while WiiU was left with several droughts. No amount of marketing would save a platform with that type of release schedule. WiiU had 2D Mario at launch followed by a 3D Zelda remake 9 months later lmao. While Switch launched with 4 major releases in its first 10 months.

Koni · Apr 1, 2024

Phenom08 said:
Everything you said was said about Switch, and revisionist tells us Switch was brilliant now lol. Bad controls (Joycon drift, Joycons falling off the rails) and overpriced along with paid online. Switch was never expected to do so well and was literally viewed the same as WiiU. The difference is Switch got Nintendo's undivided attention, while WiiU was left with several droughts. No amount of marketing would save a platform with that type of release schedule. WiiU had 2D Mario at launch followed by a 3D Zelda remake 9 months later lmao. While Switch launched with 4 major releases in its first 10 months.

The Switch, just from the fact that it didn't have "Wii" anywhere in the title, communicated the idea that it was a new console much more effectively than the Wii U, and that alone raised expectations.

Sure, the Switch was never expected to do THIS well, but it wasnt expected to be a total flop either. The reactions to it's reveal were more mixed in nature. Some analysts thought the Switch was aimed at a small audience, others thought the console would fit in well in many markets, in particular Japan. Some thought it was overpriced, while others thought the pricing was fine and figured Breath of the Wild would be a key sales driver. Analysts were wary at the risk Nintendo was taking with the Switch, but some firms estimated the console could sell 40 million units by 2020, a marked improvement over the Wii U.

Ultimately, it was both the marketing of the console and the amount of support Nintendo gave said console that is are some of the key reasons the Wii U failed and the Nintendo Switch succeeded.

storres · Apr 1, 2024

Phenom08 said:
The primary reason was certainly the games. Again are you entertaining the idea that if Pokemon Sun & Moon released for WiiU and 3DS never existed, Pokemon fans wouldn't have flocked to WiiU? Marketing the console isn't the only marketing a console receives, there would have been several more marketing campaigns for the games! Switch doesn't only get hardware marketing, each tentpole release is an opportunity to market the console. You are literally telling me millions of Nintendo consumers would have ceased to exist.

Everything you said was said about Switch, and revisionist tells us Switch was brilliant now lol. Bad controls (Joycon drift, Joycons falling off the rails) and overpriced along with paid online. Switch was never expected to do so well and was literally viewed the same as WiiU. The difference is Switch got Nintendo's undivided attention, while WiiU was left with several droughts. No amount of marketing would save a platform with that type of release schedule. WiiU had 2D Mario at launch followed by a 3D Zelda remake 9 months later lmao. While Switch launched with 4 major releases in its first 10 months.

The marketing was way off for Wii U. In the Switch era it has been straight fire. Wii U's failure was the sum of all things, droughts, bad marketing, confusión, etc.

Phenom08 · Apr 1, 2024

Koni said:
The Switch, just from the fact that it didn't have "Wii" anywhere in the title, communicated the idea that it was a new console much more effectively than the Wii U, and that alone raised expectations.

Sure, the Switch was never expected to do THIS well, but it wasnt expected to be a total flop either. The reactions to it's reveal were more mixed in nature. Some analysts thought the Switch was aimed at a small audience, others thought the console would fit in well in many markets, in particular Japan. Some thought it was overpriced, while others thought the pricing was fine and figured Breath of the Wild would be a key sales driver. Analysts were wary at the risk Nintendo was taking with the Switch, but some firms estimated the console could sell 40 million units by 2020, a marked improvement over the Wii U.

Ultimately, it was both the marketing of the console and the amount of support Nintendo gave said console that is are some of the key reasons the Wii U failed and the Nintendo Switch succeeded.

Yes but that didn't matter at all. Only reason I agree with that is because Switch was something unheard of, so it benefitted from curiosity like Wii. WiiU on the other hand was the second Wii, so now people know what to expect. The Wii never had a tainted brand name, that is nothing more that gaming forum talk. The world doesn't view Wii like online gaming forums. Nintendo had Wii in the name for familarity to WiiU. They just didn't execute (games) at all. You are acting like WiiU was always expected to do poorly? Nintendo definitely expected more. I would even bet the WiiU was expected to do better than Switch because it followed Wii, while Switch followed WiiU. You guys are giving way too much credit to names, a bad name can absolutely be carried by games. This is the same company that released a completely unheard of name for a gaming console in Wii and it went viral because of....Wii Sports. You can't look at a console and go that looks exciting, the games have to sell this idea. The WiiU funny enough probably had the highest expectations of them all because it followed Wii lol. WiiU was a victim bro.

Im not going to continue to go back and forth though, I want to hear someone tell me, if you give the Switch's line up to WiiU it would have still tanked? BoTW was a WiiU game remember? If Nintendo showed off BoTW as a WiiU launch game, that wouldn't have helped alleviate the confusion? Wii wasn't HD, BoTW would have still been confused to be a Wii game? Come on guys, it was the games. Nintendo showed us a NSMBU and the controller, a 2D Mario game will not look but so different. All Im saying is, if Nintendo released bangers for WiiU like they did for Switch, the bad controller and confusing marketing would have been completely erased. People wouldn't have remained confused if BoTW released for WiiU day one and followed shortly by Mario Kart 8 and Splatoon, and Super Mario 3D World before December 2013. Instead all of that released in a 4 year span lol, thats how much of a victim WiiU was. The marketing and confusion was the icing on the cake.

@storres Please tell me the difference in marketing.

storres · Apr 1, 2024

Phenom08 said:
Yes but that didn't matter at all. Only reason I agree with that is because Switch was something unheard of, so it benefitted from curiosity like Wii. WiiU on the other hand was the second Wii, so now people know what to expect. The Wii never had a tainted brand name, that is nothing more that gaming forum talk. The world doesn't view Wii like online gaming forums. Nintendo had Wii in the name for familarity to WiiU. They just didn't execute (games) at all. You are acting like WiiU was always expected to do poorly? Nintendo definitely expected more. I would even bet the WiiU was expected to do better than Switch because it followed Wii, while Switch followed WiiU. You guys are giving way too much credit to names, a bad name can absolutely be carried by games. This is the same company that released a completely unheard of name for a gaming console in Wii and it went viral because of....Wii Sports. You can't look at a console and go that looks exciting, the games have to sell this idea. The WiiU funny enough probably had the highest expectations of them all because it followed Wii lol. WiiU was a victim bro.

Im not going to continue to go back and forth though, I want to hear someone tell me, if you give the Switch's line up to WiiU it would have still tanked? BoTW was a WiiU game remember? If Nintendo showed off BoTW as a WiiU launch game, that wouldn't have helped alleviate the confusion? Wii wasn't HD, BoTW would have still been confused to be a Wii game? Come on guys, it was the games. Nintendo showed us a NSMBU and the controller, a 2D Mario game will not look but so different. All Im saying is, if Nintendo released bangers for WiiU like they did for Switch, the bad controller and confusing marketing would have been completely erased. People wouldn't have remained confused if BoTW released for WiiU day one and followed shortly by Mario Kart 8 and Splatoon, and Super Mario 3D World before December 2013. Instead all of that released in a 4 year span lol, thats how much of a victim WiiU was. The marketing and confusion was the icing on the cake.

@storres Please tell me the difference in marketing.

I don't have time to look for a lot but it is night and day

Phenom08 · Apr 1, 2024

storres said:
I don't have time to look for a lot but it is night and day

Dude the only thing you showed me was Nintendo advertised to families. What exactly was the difference there? Because you said one is bad and one isn't? No I don't see the issue with those WiiU ads at all. Both showed 4 kids playing Mario Kart 8.

So i'll go alittle further. I often see alot of whining about Nintendo advertising to kids with WiiU. Which could be true but do you know why that is? It's because those were the only games Nintendo had ready for WiiU. There is no difference between how Nintendo advertised Mario Kart 8 on Switch and WiiU or NSMBU on WiiU vs. Super Mario Wonder on Switch. The only franchises Nintendo were able to release on WiiU were their games that market to that segement. We saw a better variety for Switch ads because Switch got a better variety of games. It all comes back to the games. Nintendo targeted teens/young adults with their BoTW ads, how exactly was Nintendo going to do that on WiiU without releasing BoTW on WiiU? Again it all comes back to games. Ill ask you this, could you imagine what the Switch would look like if it launched with 1,2 Switch and Super Mario Wonder in March 2017 and followed by Zelda Skyward Sword HD in November 2017? That's the type of release schedule WiiU had, combine that with Joycon drift, paid online, and voice chat via an app and Switch is a full blown travesty. Not even Apple's marketing could have saved WiiU because gaming consoles are sold by games, not ads. Games are sold by ads, people have to see what's fun about them.

Koni · Apr 1, 2024

Phenom08 said:
Yes but that didn't matter at all. Only reason I agree with that is because Switch was something unheard of, so it benefitted from curiosity like Wii. WiiU on the other hand was the second Wii, so now people know what to expect. The Wii never had a tainted brand name, that is nothing more that gaming forum talk. The world doesn't view Wii like online gaming forums. Nintendo had Wii in the name for familarity to WiiU. They just didn't execute (games) at all. You are acting like WiiU was always expected to do poorly? Nintendo definitely expected more. I would even bet the WiiU was expected to do better than Switch because it followed Wii, while Switch followed WiiU. You guys are giving way too much credit to names, a bad name can absolutely be carried by games. This is the same company that released a completely unheard of name for a gaming console in Wii and it went viral because of....Wii Sports. You can't look at a console and go that looks exciting, the games have to sell this idea. The WiiU funny enough probably had the highest expectations of them all because it followed Wii lol. WiiU was a victim bro.

Im not going to continue to go back and forth though, I want to hear someone tell me, if you give the Switch's line up to WiiU it would have still tanked? BoTW was a WiiU game remember? If Nintendo showed off BoTW as a WiiU launch game, that wouldn't have helped alleviate the confusion? Wii wasn't HD, BoTW would have still been confused to be a Wii game? Come on guys, it was the games. Nintendo showed us a NSMBU and the controller, a 2D Mario game will not look but so different. All Im saying is, if Nintendo released bangers for WiiU like they did for Switch, the bad controller and confusing marketing would have been completely erased. People wouldn't have remained confused if BoTW released for WiiU day one and followed shortly by Mario Kart 8 and Splatoon, and Super Mario 3D World before December 2013. Instead all of that released in a 4 year span lol, thats how much of a victim WiiU was. The marketing and confusion was the icing on the cake.

@storres Please tell me the difference in marketing.

When I said that the Switch communicated the idea much more effectively than the Wii U just by not haveing the word "Wii" in the title, I wasn't implying that the brand was tainted. I was implying the fact that the casual audience would immediately know that it's not related to the Wii at all, it's something completely new. Because, if I may remind you, here are a list of Wii accessories and console revisions:

- Wii Remote
- Wii MotionPlus
- Wii Balance Board
- Wii Wheel
- Wii Mini

Now here is how Nintendo themselves revealed the Wii U:

If you are not a hardcore gamer (and the vast majority of people who bought the Wii were not, it's popularity with casual audiences is why it was so successful) it would be incredibly easy to write this off as either yet another version of the Wii or simply an accessory to the Wii, and while I don't think the Wii's name was tainted...

...well, thinking about it now, and this may very well be a hot take, but... the Wii was a fad. It's most successful game by far was a pack-in title, with the next-best selling game (Mario Kart Wii) selling under half what Wii Sports did. And out of the 9 games that sold more than 10 million units (compared to the Switch's 21), 6 of them are Wii series games. So from a casual perspective, it seems like Nintendo's releasing another Wii-related thing after the Wii fad had already died down.

You're right in that the Wii U wouldn't have tanked if it has the Switch's library. But it wouldn't have been as successful as the Wii or Switch either. The Wii U didn't have mainline Pokemon, but neither did the Wii. The Wii U had Mario Kart 8 and New Super Mario Bros U and Super Mario 3D World, but they've gone on to sell way more as Switch ports. Splatoon was already popular in Japan, but now we're seeing what it can do on a console that's actually popular with casual and hardcore fans alike.

Now I am speculating, but hear me out: you said earlier that the Wii U would've done better if it has the 3DS's support in addition to it's own. Let's just take 3DS support for a second - if that's the case, then at best, the Wii U would've probably done around half what the Wii did... because Nintendo poured their resources into the 3DS during the Wii U's lifespan and that console ending up doing about half what the Nintendo DS did. In the Wii U's case, that's about 50 million units... and thus we're in the territory of the Xbox One - another console that didnt sell well partially because it completely bungled it's initial reveal.

First impressions really do matter.

Phenom08 · Apr 1, 2024

Koni said:
When I said that the Switch communicated the idea much more effectively than the Wii U just by not haveing the word "Wii" in the title, I wasn't implying that the brand was tainted. I was implying the fact that the casual audience would immediately know that it's not related to the Wii at all, it's something completely new. Because, if I may remind you, here are a list of Wii accessories and console revisions:

- Wii Remote
- Wii MotionPlus
- Wii Balance Board
- Wii Wheel
- Wii Mini

Now here is how Nintendo themselves revealed the Wii U:

If you are not a hardcore gamer (and the vast majority of people who bought the Wii were not, it's popularity with casual audiences is why it was so successful) it would be incredibly easy to write this off as either yet another version of the Wii or simply an accessory to the Wii, and while I don't think the Wii's name was tainted...

I get the marketing was confusing but yet again, we are acting like the only marketing a console receives is it's initial reveal? This also implies the initial impression to consumers is the reveal video? Im not sure about that, Im pretty positive the initial impression for alot of consumers of a console are the games being marketed. In other words, millions of people would have found out the WiiU was a new console if it was marketed by BoTW followed by other tent pole releases. There was always going to be a dropoff in the casual audience because Nintendo was never going to strike lightning twice but a consistent release schedule of tent pole releases would have alleviated this.

Koni said:
...well, thinking about it now, and this may very well be a hot take, but... the Wii was a fad. It's most successful game by far was a pack-in title, with the next-best selling game (Mario Kart Wii) selling under half what Wii Sports did. And out of the 9 games that sold more than 10 million units (compared to the Switch's 21), 6 of them are Wii series games. So from a casual perspective, it seems like Nintendo's releasing another Wii-related thing after the Wii fad had already died down.

Wii itself was a fad/went "viral" but that doesn't mean a better software support couldn't have lead to a better selling WiiU like what we see out of Switch. The Wii and DS(Nintendogs & Brainage) are the reason Nintendo sold over 250 million consoles that generation. That type of success isn't easy to repeat but a full blown flop happened because Nintendo followed Wii with an atrocious line up of software for WiiU. Moving on, this is definitely a hot take and an outlandish comparison. Wii Sports was a pack in game, no game had any chance in hell. Mario Kart Wii sold incredible, you sound like you are trying spin it getting beat so badly as a bad thing? Really? A pack in title outselling everything else by a big distance is bad? That's definitely a wild take lol. Also comparing 10 million sellers on Wii to Switch is also an outlandish comparson, Switch should never be compared to any other Nintendo platform directly because its the beneficiary of receiving Nintendo's full undivided attention. Dont you think Wii gets several more 10 million sellers if it had 4 mainline Pokemon games, mainline Animal Crossing, and Luigi Mansion 3? What about Splatoon? You think if Wii got Nintendo's undivided attention it wouldn't also have a ton of more 10 million sellers? Nintendo releasing another Wii console meant the viral games like Wii Sports and Wii Fit couldn't carry the console and Nintendo's tradition titles would have had to do that, which we see from Switch lead to a bigger success than Wii. WiiU could have had the Switch's release schedule and Wii Sports Club and Wii Fit U would have had a bigger audience to sell to like Nintendo Switch Sports and Ring Fit Adventure. Those games are definitely from the Wii era and sold fairly well, not necessarily viral well but still well enough to continue to get releases.

Koni said:
You're right in that the Wii U wouldn't have tanked if it has the Switch's library. But it wouldn't have been as successful as the Wii or Switch either. The Wii U didn't have mainline Pokemon, but neither did the Wii. The Wii U had Mario Kart 8 and New Super Mario Bros U and Super Mario 3D World, but they've gone on to sell way more as Switch ports. Splatoon was already popular in Japan, but now we're seeing what it can do on a console that's actually popular with casual and hardcore fans alike.

Switch I agree but Wii, im not sure. Wii didn't need Pokemon because the Wii games went viral, so WiiU needed Pokemon because those Wii games didn't go viral on WiiU. WiiU had all of those games in a span of 2 years with droughts between them. Switch got games like that in its first year along several more. Of course those games would sell more on Switch, the audience was much larger because Switch got a great line up.

Koni said:
Now I am speculating, but hear me out: you said earlier that the Wii U would've done better if it has the 3DS's support in addition to it's own. Let's just take 3DS support for a second - if that's the case, then at best, the Wii U would've probably done around half what the Wii did... because Nintendo poured their resources into the 3DS during the Wii U's lifespan and that console ending up doing about half what the Nintendo DS did. In the Wii U's case, that's about 50 million units... and thus we're in the territory of the Xbox One - another console that didnt sell well partially because it completely bungled it's initial reveal.

Don't think we can speculate like this, you would have been better off saying WiiU would have sold as much as 3DS. Why would all those 3DS consumers refuse to buy WiiU if they receive all of 3DS support? Ill do some speculation as well, imaging 3DS never existed. WiiU would have looked like the combination of Wii and DS, dont you think? Touch screen controller, while still using Wii remotes? WiiU would have recieved BoTW, Mario games, Pokemon, Splatoon, Animal Crossing, Smash, Wii Sports Club, Wii Fit U, Nintendogs and Cats, Brainage, Luigi Mansion so on and so on. Selling 50 million sounds like a gross underestimation, 25 million would have been garanteed in Japan alone. Another 25 million from the rest of the world is all? Nah, im not seeing it.

Koni said:
First impressions really do matter.

Release schedules matter far more.

PS: I'm going to make a thread about how superior WiiU was to Switch because I'm sick of the disrespect it receives compared to the grossly inferior Switch completely carried by Nintendo's software.

Rogue Agent · Apr 1, 2024

ILikeFeet said:
Depends on how you want to define "hybrid play". Because nearly all the pc tablets have a way to play on the TV. "Seamless" is something that varies between all of them. Personally, I don't count it as that's subjective

I see. You're right that it is subjective.

duvjones said:
Yes but the gulf between that and say, the Steam Deck, is not that far. On top of that their has been a raft of PC handhelds since. Alone they mean very little, but as a block they are rather hard to ignore.

I forgot to mention about marketing the device as something where you can switch between TV and handheld than just being but in terms of a handheld device that can play 'console-level' games, I can see the comparison. I agree that as a block, these PC handhelds are difficult to just ignore, but I think they would be more serious if they started having some level of retail presence.

duvjones · Apr 1, 2024

Rogue Agent said:
I agree that as a block, these PC handhelds are difficult to just ignore, but I think they would be more serious if they started having some level of retail presence.

Fair enough, but I do think that you will see them more likely at a retail gray market (like a flea market or value mall) than say, Walmart. And you also have to include Amazon in that picture whom is likely to sell almost anything.

That said, none of the manufacturers of PC handhelds have put in serious marketing dollars towards their devices. The most as clearly been Valve, and it's been clear for them that Switch fighter the Steam Deck ain't.

BTB123 · Apr 1, 2024

Man the Wii U ads were almost all terrible from start to finish. I haven't seen a single Switch ad that is like those Wii U ads. They were cringe and full of screaming children, trying to appeal solely to them. Switch ads always try to appeal to either the whole family or adults.

Just appealing to young kids doesn't work. The kids see their older siblings or teenagers or their parents with a Switch and want that too. That's why the Switch's reveal only showing young adults playing it worked so well.

Additionally in general Switch ads were always clear about what the product is. Wii U ads were not. It's name also sounded like it's an accessory and not a whole console.

The launch lineup was another damning factor.

storres · Apr 1, 2024

BTB123 said:
Man the Wii U ads were almost all terrible from start to finish. I haven't seen a single Switch ad that is like those Wii U ads. They were cringe and full of screaming children, trying to appeal solely to them. Switch ads always try to appeal to either the whole family or adults.

Just appealing to young kids doesn't work. The kids see their older siblings or teenagers or their parents with a Switch and want that too. That's why the Switch's reveal only showing young adults playing it worked so well.

Additionally in general Switch ads were always clear about what the product is. Wii U ads were not. It's name also sounded like it's an accessory and not a whole console.

The launch lineup was another damning factor.

Yeah, the difference is night and day.

Danny · Apr 1, 2024

Will be interesting what impact Nintendo new multimedia strategy will have for the next console.

Basically Nintendo has said that the main goal of their mobile, theme park and movie efforts is to increase Nintendo mindshare among the general consumers. Nintendo have even mentioned that they want to expand Nintendo stores into different countries as well. I think Nintendo mindshare have definitely gone up considerably since the Wii U era, mostly due to the Switch but also because Nintendo IP have diversified into new avenues separate from just the console games in themselves.

That makes me think that a bomb like Wii U will not be repeated for Nintendo. A high mindshare among consumers makes it more likely to have people wanting to buy your stuff in the short, medium and long run. Of course it doesn't mean that the Switch 2 will outsell the Switch 1, but Nintendo's new strategy makes me think its likely they will be capable of being rivals to the Playstation 5 and 6 with the Switch 2 as well. Nintendo growing their mindshare is their PR strategy to not have the Switch 1 be a one time success like the Wii was, but to make it into something more sustainable big for the future.

I also think a main reason why Xbox is doing worse than Playstation and the Switch is that the Xbox has less mindshare among consumers, considerably so in markets like Europe.

Rogue Agent · Apr 1, 2024

duvjones said:
Fair enough, but I do think that you will see them more likely at a retail gray market (like a flea market or value mall) than say, Walmart. And you also have to include Amazon in that picture whom is likely to sell almost anything.

That's a good point, these markets could increase exposure for these handhelds even if they're not full-on retail markets.

duvjones said:
That said, none of the manufacturers of PC handhelds have put in serious marketing dollars towards their devices. The most as clearly been Valve, and it's been clear for them that Switch fighter the Steam Deck ain't.

Yeah, if one of them ever start doing that then Nintendo could face some kind of competition. But like you said, even Steam Deck is less about competing with Switch and more about Valve expanding and building on their Steam platform. It would be nice if one day we got a device with a serious retail presence that can make the handheld/hybrid market even more interesting and competitive.

Gotdatmoney · Apr 1, 2024

WiiU advertsising was terrible but the productbitself was also just not good or captivating. The software sucked, there was no hardware feature that justified the price or concept, it was expensive for what it offered. Even if WiiU had Switch software it would still be a far less successful product.

Akira Toriyama passed away

Nintendo is going into next gen with a lot of momentum... and still several cards to play

Tears of the Kingdom fanatic

Infected with 'Xenoblade'. 御免なさい🙇‍♀️

Insert clever pun here

Tears of the Kingdom fanatic

Tears of the Kingdom fanatic

Zelda is the best

Zelda is the best

Tears of the Kingdom fanatic

Zelda is the best