How would you make for Final Fantasy to return to be a multi million seller?(4M-8M launch).

The notion that FF has branded itself on being a technical showcase is absolutely hilarious to me when 13, 15 and 16 are just average looking games for their respective platforms and are NEVER mentioned in any discussion about the most graphically impressive games.
The reality is that SE is just bad at managing budgets, and that most people don’t give a crap about graphics.

FFXIII was considered a graphical showcase for the PS3/360 back when it launched in 2009. In fact, the visuals still 'somewhat' hold up today, 16 years later. FFXV was widely used in PC GPU benchmarking videos for years after it launched in 2017, and XVI gets used regularly in benchmarking videos today. Just go and have a look around.

However, I do think that with the laws of diminishing returns nowadays on graphical fidelity with each gen-on-gen upgrade and where graphical showcases really don't stand out as much as they used to, SE should be focusing less on trying to compete visually with studios that sell a lot more games like Rockstar, CDPR, Naughty Dog, Santa Monic, Insomniac etc and more on creating good stories with interesting characters, first and foremost. I feel they've lost a bit of that writing magic for a while now trying to chase the magic dragon.
 
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Notice how you’re using games that are more than 20 years old. FF hasn’t been that in a long long looooooong time. There are just a lot of way better looking games than FF.

I’m struggling to find anyone pick FF as having the best graphics in online discussions across Reddit, Era, Digital Foundry, gaming outlets. Surely it shouldn’t be this hard if it were true.

I think the issue is that you’re heavily weighting your own personal online experience which not only is limited by your capacity as an individual human but also it sounds like you probably weren’t very active on forums in the early to mid 2010s because the games you specifically mentioned absolutely were talked about with the best looking games when they released.
 
I think the issue is that you’re heavily weighting your own personal online experience which not only is limited by your capacity as an individual human but also it sounds like you probably weren’t very active on forums in the early to mid 2010s because the games you specifically mentioned absolutely were talked about with the best looking games when they released.

And to add to this Final Fantasy was almost the default ‘showcase’ game for playstation before Sony started investing bigger budgets into their own games. FF7-13 is a large reason why a lot of people bought new consoles.

Early PS3 didn’t have a big Naughty Dog game to carry it. It was Final Fantasy 13 and Metal Gear Solid 4
 
Still think that Final Fantasy XV together with Red Dead Redemption 2 are the two most impressive open world games in visuals released on the PS4/Xbox gen
 
I think the issue is that you’re heavily weighting your own personal online experience which not only is limited by your capacity as an individual human but also it sounds like you probably weren’t very active on forums in the early to mid 2010s because the games you specifically mentioned absolutely were talked about with the best looking games when they released.
Who said anything about my own personal experience? I’m deliberately searching for evidence of people talking about the more recent FF games as being among the best graphics showcases and I cannot find it.
The point of this is to show that:
1) This tactic isn’t working both in terms of recognition and in terms of sales
2) Reigning back the budget allocated to the graphics will not result in much of a perceivable difference to most people

Whether or not this thread wants to believe that FF is actually an industry leader in graphics is really not important. Facts speak for themselves and SE can either course correct or continue their descent into irrelevancy.
 
And also, now that Square Enix have already fully changed the traditional gameplay of FF games with FF16, what is stopping them from trying to make a Fromsoft style FF game? Next FF could have Elden Ring as their inspiration, rather than traditional FF.

Square Enix took inspiration from Devil May Cry with FF16, i think FF17 will take inspiration from Elden Ring.
that was already made, Final Fantasy Origins

that said, I don't think they'll continue with it as it fell behind FF7R series. if anything, Rebirth will be the template going forward



this video crossed my feed yesterday and all I can think of is, maybe FF should attempt a full urban fantasy game

 
Big Open World
Full Multiplatform from PC to PS to Xbox to even Switch 2 on day one. No more jerking around late port or any time exclusives bullshit.
Actually complete game like FF16 or FF15 royal edition.
multiple marketing tools like anime, movie or manga to push the brand
Move away from far niche battle system like DMC battle system of FF16 and move to more mainstream audience accepted title like FF15 battle system or just pure turn base
Tone down the AAA talk of FF in terms of a must for churning the ultimate gfx because at this point, FF simply has more problem that trying to corner itself into only AAA gfx or nothing else. You can still target AAA but tone down the gfx(DD2 level) to ensure the game can be run on as many platform as possible.

I believe if the game is quality, with all of those above. It will at least do 6 to 8m for sure.
 
that was already made, Final Fantasy Origins

that said, I don't think they'll continue with it as it fell behind FF7R series. if anything, Rebirth will be the template going forward



this video crossed my feed yesterday and all I can think of is, maybe FF should attempt a full urban fantasy game


Kingdom Hearts 3 did have a world that was exactly that
 
It’s also worth asking: what value has being “open world”, even if partially, really brought to Final Fantasy?
I'll admit, I'm wary of the whole idea parroted in enthusiast spaces that seemingly all games should feature open worlds and have made that plain on a number of occasions, with at least part of the reasoning being that I agree with Yahtzee Croshaw about most open worlds being "drearily spectacular" and function more as a marketing bulletpoint than a meaningful addition to the games they're in, but that obvious slant is why I ask the question.
Is the expense of open worlds netting an equal or greater return for Square Enix, or are they pursuing that because "that's the feature that all the best games have and we have to have it too"?
And to add to this Final Fantasy was almost the default ‘showcase’ game for playstation before Sony started investing bigger budgets into their own games. FF7-13 is a large reason why a lot of people bought new consoles.

Early PS3 didn’t have a big Naughty Dog game to carry it. It was Final Fantasy 13 and Metal Gear Solid 4
Uncharted 1 erasure.
 
The graphical performance of FF was made irrelevant during the PS3/X360 generation. That generation brought in a suite of games like Uncharted 2/3, TLOU, Gears of War 2/3, etc, all of which were delivering the scale of spectacle FF would deliver in cutscenes, but often directly in gameplay and at a fidelity that was close enough to CG to be more impressive than what the likes of FFXIII was doing.

You can get great graphics everywhere now. It's not a unique selling point anymore, which is a problem because "great graphics" is one of the only consistent elements among the most recent FF games.

Open world games makes an easier sell to the mass market and for player expression
"Open world" has little to do with mass market sales or player expression, it's not just a big Win button large publishers can press for money to come out. Baldur's Gate 3 is full of "player expression" beyond what anyone would even expect from an FF game, and has sales numbers modern FF can only dream of, and it's not an open world game.

What customers like about open worlds is usually some combination of immersion and the idea that you can spend your time doing repeatable game elements without the commitment to doing higher pressure "main story " progression. JRPGs often fail in this regard (e.g. towns/settings that feel contrived/unrealistic and not immersive at all, and often very little to do that isn't main story progression or simple grinding) so I think addressing that would help, whether that's through an "open world" or not.

I think one thing that is non-negotiable is actually delivering strong traditional RPG elements like multiple viable character builds, strategic combat with difficult encounters, etc . We're in a market environment where D&D and pen and paper/CRPGs have exploded in popularity alongside stuff like FromSoft's output, which is completely unashamed about stat management, armour/weapon builds, throwing pages of numbers at the player, etc. Customers clearly value this kind of depth and don't want the Diet Coke version of it (Veilguard, for example).
 
Who's actually buying games in 2020s because they are graphical showcases...? The biggest games nowadays run on every platforms, even mobile. Final Fantasy must be technically competent but the focus should be elsewhere.
 
1. Switch 2 release
2. Switch 2 release
3. Multi-plat with PC (Xbox if they can but not required)
4. Review story telling and characters to ones that will appeal to Japanese audiences. Western guys will come along regardless.
5. Focus not only on scale and scope but depth (without fillers.). less emphasis on graphics, instead a deep and grand narrative.
6. What ever combat system they choose it has to be incredibly deep and unique.

To me from my experience with Remake. Rebirth seems like a filler game. Game that has many paddings and filler to make it larger. just like Remake, with a story that has no real stakes.
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And also it’s time to drop the numbers. Or start again
 
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Who's actually buying games in 2020s because they are graphical showcases...? The biggest games nowadays run on every platforms, even mobile. Final Fantasy must be technically competent but the focus should be elsewhere.

Honestly, this discussion is just going from nothing to nowhere. It's been very clear that nobody wants that to be their focus, people are just pushing back to the notion that scaling back to what's arguably AA levels of production values would somehow help FF grow.
 
Late to the party, but my opinion is a genuine good hook!!

I think FF16 biggest issue, is that I think it looks bland, in which it's something that's been quite normalised, in the medieval setting, especially when FF15 had this amazing hook, which sadly wasn't delivered

Also... please make the next instalment more RPG focus, in which you feel like you're in a party, compared to FF16, which feels a bit empty, in which it's pretty much only you doing the thing, something akin to FF7 Rebirth maybe?

Also.. Multiplatfrom releases, specifically on the Switch 2 and PC.. I mean the Switch only version of DQ3 HD-2D Remake sold 1M, just releasing on Switch 2 is going to do wonders for Japanese sales, same for day 1 PC releases

Despite it all.. I think SE biggest hurdle as of now is appeasing to a younger audience, specifically from my demographic, kinda like how Splatoon is really popular to younger folks like myself in it's early teen/young adult age and it's something I feel like is becoming harder and harder in this market, appalling to new gamers, especially those who are young
 
Lowering production values would reduce the budget but not increase sales (which is what the OP is asking).

I think FF is in a tough place right now but it's not impossible to make a comeback. Some ideas:
- The most obvious and first step is multiplatform release.
- Take what works from the past three titles and iterate on them instead of starting over everytime.
- Drop the number from the title. This way you don't have to spend a single dollar in marketing to explain that it's standalone etc...
- Stricter quality control on spin-offs - there have been loads of bad side releases over the past two decades which devalued the IP overtime. Something like Chocobo GP must not be allowed to happen again.
- Mobile presence. The successful FF mobile games are ancient now and a new successful one would go a long way to introduce the brand to mainstream and younger audiences.
- On a more subjective note, I think REBIRTH presents a solid template for modern FF - a mainline title with further iteration, a standalone story and multiplatform release would have great potential.

The above is just the start of what they need to do to stop the bleeding and start growing again. However, what the next FF needs to do is deliver a unique and memorable experience that will get people talking, which is easier said than done. SE's recent moves are promising so I think the brand will be on an upward trajectory from now on.
 
Lowering production values would reduce the budget but not increase sales (which is what the OP is asking).

I think FF is in a tough place right now but it's not impossible to make a comeback. Some ideas:
- The most obvious and first step is multiplatform release.
- Take what works from the past three titles and iterate on them instead of starting over everytime.
- Drop the number from the title. This way you don't have to spend a single dollar in marketing to explain that it's standalone etc...
- Stricter quality control on spin-offs - there have been loads of bad side releases over the past two decades which devalued the IP overtime. Something like Chocobo GP must not be allowed to happen again.
- Mobile presence. The successful FF mobile games are ancient now and a new successful one would go a long way to introduce the brand to mainstream and younger audiences.
- On a more subjective note, I think REBIRTH presents a solid template for modern FF - a mainline title with further iteration, a standalone story and multiplatform release would have great potential.

The above is just the start of what they need to do to stop the bleeding and start growing again. However, what the next FF needs to do is deliver a unique and memorable experience that will get people talking, which is easier said than done. SE's recent moves are promising so I think the brand will be on an upward trajectory from now on.

Honestly... dropping the number from the title would just feel like whatever they release like that will be seen as a spin-off instead of a mainline release and it won't get the attention it deserves.

So, instead of the supposed marketing expense of explaining it's standalone (which I don't think is a thing, people know at this point)... they'll have to go through the trouble and related costs of explaining to people why 'Final Fantasy: Subtitle' is a mainline title and 'Final Fantasy: Other Subtitle' is not. And they'll have to do that everytime they release a new title, instead of following the pattern that people have already come to know.

It would just create confusion with no advantage whatsoever.
 
I don't recall them ever doing this. and a single line in a multi-minute long trailer isn't gonna cost them extra

This is not true. XVI alone had more than one trailer/ad explain that it's not necessary to play previous titles, here's the most obvious example.

Honestly... dropping the number from the title would just feel like whatever they release like that will be seen as a spin-off instead of a mainline release and it won't get the attention it deserves.

So, instead of the supposed marketing expense of explaining it's standalone (which I don't think is a thing, people know at this point)... they'll have to go through the trouble and related costs of explaining to people why 'Final Fantasy: Subtitle' is a mainline title and 'Final Fantasy: Other Subtitle' is not. And they'll have to do that everytime they release a new title, instead of following the pattern that people have already come to know.

It would just create confusion with no advantage whatsoever.

Disagree about this not having an advantage - the fact that you have to explain it's a clean slate every time is an uphill battle. I do agree though about potential confusion when it comes to spin-offs, it would be difficult to implement but not impossible (The Legend of Zelda does this successfully).

Mind you, I'm not saying FF won't find success without dropping the number but I do think it creates a barrier for more mainstream/casual gamers.
 
Yeah, I don't know if "counting on money from a big platform holder" again is the way forward.

Square looks like a Studio that wants to make the games they want to make. The problem is, the person or leadership who decides what they want to make is either chasing trends or more accurately, changing leaders every game so that no continuous vision forms.

When you hear about the dude wanting to make FF15 as he wants it. Or FF16 as this action combat dark medieval dream game.
Great! I love that they stick to their dreams. Mor devs should chase their dreams and not trends, regardless if thats not in line with what is expected to be the hot trend right now.

Until you look deeper and see that their directors and producers change every game and that there is no vision from game to game.
This "chasing your dream" scenario only works if you constantly iterate on your previous titles. Thats when fanbases grow, when institutionalized knowledge is planted, that's when a good production timeline lowers your budget.
Larian didn't make BG3 out of the blue with a different genre, different director, different producer, different fanbase, every game for the last 2 decades.
They made BG3 with a constant leadership, iterating on their successes, and a strong "message" on what their fanbase can expect out of their games.
(The same is probably true for RGG and Formsoftware, but I don't know if the part about the leadership holds)
I have long said sakaguci not being there anymore is what lead to ff being where it is now. there is no sense of direction in the series imo
 
Customers simply do not care about whatever number is in the title. The sales for e.g. Baldur's Gate 3 are many times the size of BG1 and 2's combined sales, and that game is a direct sequel with callbacks to those games. Same for Witcher 3 vs the rest of the series.

They should keep numbered entries, because the legacy of the series and the recurring elements which date back to the 80s are valuable enough to retain the link.
 
Customers simply do not care about whatever number is in the title. The sales for e.g. Baldur's Gate 3 are many times the size of BG1 and 2's combined sales, and that game is a direct sequel with callbacks to those games. Same for Witcher 3 vs the rest of the series.

They should keep numbered entries, because the legacy of the series and the recurring elements which date back to the 80s are valuable enough to retain the link.

Retaining the numbers got us here.

FF15 should have stayed Versus 13
FF16 should just have a subtitle.

Any mainline FF game should have stayed true to its ATB gameplay. Maybe you get a 15-year dry phase because of it, but the next Mainline ATB FF game would have immense hype.
The Action focus has alienated too many older fans and either the Action combat isn't that great or potential FF fans don't care about Action combat that much, because it certainly hasn't expanded the userbase.

Numbering them is clearly arbitrary, we saw that with the shift from versus 13 to FF15, the MMORPG's getting numbered, and Type 0 not getting a number.

If some directors wanted to make DMC like combat games, let them do it on unnumbered FF games or make a new IP.
Surely, now someone comes out shouting that a new IP would have even lower sales. I mean, if FF16 had no FF-adjacent motifs and would have sold even less than the awful numbers that FF16 originally did, doesn't that prove that only the name of the franchise ond not the game mechanics sold the game? That action combat, no-party, no RPG, was an awful decision?

If the game was good, but it ultimately got dragged down by the war between FF combat fans, it shouldn't have been a numbered title or even a FF game. (I am playing some Action games, but if my favorite series gets an action direction because the director feels like it (and thinks it sells better) than I am predisposed to not like and not buy the game, many people probably think the same, who play Witcher, Elden Ring, DMC, etc. but don't want that from FF and don't want to support something like that)
 
FFXV clearly did better that average because of the action combat, is still the best selling FF game on NPD
 
The mainline games sell millions at launch and the sub titled entries sell a small fraction of that even when they’re good.

A double digit number in your game title is nothing to be ashamed of, it’s a point of pride that your franchise has been successful to warrant so many entries over such a long period of time.

The number of people passing on XVI because they think they need to play the first XV games first is going to be so small that it doesn’t warrant the change, far more people would skip a sub titled mainline game because they think it’s just a spin off.
 
But i do know a lot of people that think that you need to play the other 15 games to play 16.

Even content creators lol
 
FFXV clearly did better that average because of the action combat, is still the best selling FF game on NPD

And it lost 70% of that audience with the next title.

The mainline games sell millions at launch and the sub titled entries sell a small fraction of that even when they’re good.

A double digit number in your game title is nothing to be ashamed of, it’s a point of pride that your franchise has been successful to warrant so many entries over such a long period of time.

The number of people passing on XVI because they think they need to play the first XV games first is going to be so small that it doesn’t warrant the change, far more people would skip a sub titled mainline game because they think it’s just a spin off.

It's not about playing the 15 titles before. It's about the expectations of the fanbase you got from the previous games.
FF17 could be all we ever asked for in lieu with FF7-10, but because of the different fanbases the last entries of the numbered FF games tried to appeal, it won't sell as many copies.

Also FF15 sales numbers: Either the combat system did the heavy lifting or the Final Fantasy numbered name did the heavy lifting.
"It would have sold much worse if it wasn't numbered" and "the action combat made those sales possible" can't both be possible. Either you have brand recognition, or you have a superior battle system that has a much broader appeal. if FF15 wouldn't have been a numbered title and would have sold much less, than the battle system couldn't be the sales magnet it's touted to be.

Other Action games can sell 10-20 million. If you need a numbered Final Fantasy name to get one game in that ballpark (and the next game tanking with it), than the battle system isn't good enough.
 
The idea that the numbering plays a significant role in a decline of sales is pretty funny to me.

The bestselling games in the franchise are VII, XV, and X. If so many peoplef felt like XV was a good starting point, why would XVI make them feel like they have to play the entire series?
 
Honestly, this discussion is just going from nothing to nowhere. It's been very clear that nobody wants that to be their focus, people are just pushing back to the notion that scaling back to what's arguably AA levels of production values would somehow help FF grow.

People are arguing on circle because they follow the simple idea that AAA only means if the gfx at the maximum like 100m above budget for dev.

But 50 to 60m budget is also AAA and that is also able to produce really high quality gfx game there.
 
Open world games makes an easier sell to the mass market and for player expression
First, this statement is not exactly beating the allegations that "open world" gameplay is just a giant wasteful marketing expense paid for by the R&D budget.

Second, I have to agree with @KarlRemarx that there are multiple less expensive or time-consuming avenues for player expression that don't amount to rendering huge spaces for players to just faff about in and the saturation of "open worlds" has led to some exhaustion with them among some gamers.
What customers like about open worlds is usually some combination of immersion and the idea that you can spend your time doing repeatable game elements without the commitment to doing higher pressure "main story " progression. JRPGs often fail in this regard (e.g. towns/settings that feel contrived/unrealistic and not immersive at all, and often very little to do that isn't main story progression or simple grinding) so I think addressing that would help, whether that's through an "open world" or not.
Despite my agreement, I disagree on this specific point, there's plenty of repeatable fun stuff you can do in a great many non-open-world RPGs (though the example you provided is fair enough, unless it’s meant to be a tiny bloody village, settlements could stand for more activity and more to do in it, even Zelda games of old had more random stuff to do in each locale more often than not). RPGs, and FF in particular, have been filled with repeatable stuff to eat into play time. Blitzball, Triple Triad, the endless stuff one can do in FFVII… it's there if you want it. Room to improve, sure, but I agree fundamentally that immersion and repeatable game elements (or at least inconsequential tasks that are fun to players) does not begin and end with the open world.
 
Lowering production values would reduce the budget but not increase sales (which is what the OP is asking).
Not necessarily. Lowering the production values (ie simpler graphics, reducing the size of the locales, etc) can mean you can do things differently too, not just lesser.
For example. FF7R with simpler graphics, smaller scope recreation of the world, fewer expansions into side content and characters, could have led them to be able to remake the entirety of 7 in a single game, while massively improving its sales. It’s a matter of priorities.
 
Honestly, this discussion is just going from nothing to nowhere. It's been very clear that nobody wants that to be their focus, people are just pushing back to the notion that scaling back to what's arguably AA levels of production values would somehow help FF grow.

You can still be an AAA game without having cutting-edge graphics. Tears of the Kingdom is AAA and the budget shows in gameplay mechanics, not necessarily graphics.
 
I am not informed in details in this , but I wonder if Games like Tomb Raider Trilogy or Marvel Avengers having bloated budgets was a direction from the headquarters in Japan that Eidos applied or it was entirely on Eidos side with the headquarters giving just the greenlight
 
Not necessarily. Lowering the production values (ie simpler graphics, reducing the size of the locales, etc) can mean you can do things differently too, not just lesser.
For example. FF7R with simpler graphics, smaller scope recreation of the world, fewer expansions into side content and characters, could have led them to be able to remake the entirety of 7 in a single game, while massively improving its sales. It’s a matter of priorities.

This is an interesting "what if" situation and I guess we'll never know, but I think part of the appeal of an FF7 remake is experiencing the many locations and story beats in high fidelity. A cheaper looking product would've still performed well considering the game's legacy but I have serious doubts about it having "massively improved" sales.
 
I am not informed in details in this , but I wonder if Games like Tomb Raider Trilogy or Marvel Avengers having bloated budgets was a direction from the headquarters in Japan that Eidos applied or it was entirely on Eidos side with the headquarters giving just the greenlight
Most likely the latter. We saw, when the Eidos studios were sold, that Crystal Dynamics was quite the expensive studio to run
 
This is an interesting "what if" situation and I guess we'll never know, but I think part of the appeal of an FF7 remake is experiencing the many locations and story beats in high fidelity. A cheaper looking product would've still performed well considering the game's legacy but I have serious doubts about it having "massively improved" sales.
I think PS4 level games still look fantastic even if they aren’t pushing boundaries. And if you’re not pushing boundaries you can at least have easy perfect image quality and performance which is a big plus that some top end games don’t get (look at MH Wilds as a recent example)
 
Retaining the numbers got us here.

FF15 should have stayed Versus 13
FF16 should just have a subtitle.

Any mainline FF game should have stayed true to its ATB gameplay. Maybe you get a 15-year dry phase because of it, but the next Mainline ATB FF game would have immense hype.
The Action focus has alienated too many older fans and either the Action combat isn't that great or potential FF fans don't care about Action combat that much, because it certainly hasn't expanded the userbase.

Numbering them is clearly arbitrary, we saw that with the shift from versus 13 to FF15, the MMORPG's getting numbered, and Type 0 not getting a number.

If some directors wanted to make DMC like combat games, let them do it on unnumbered FF games or make a new IP.
Surely, now someone comes out shouting that a new IP would have even lower sales. I mean, if FF16 had no FF-adjacent motifs and would have sold even less than the awful numbers that FF16 originally did, doesn't that prove that only the name of the franchise ond not the game mechanics sold the game? That action combat, no-party, no RPG, was an awful decision?

If the game was good, but it ultimately got dragged down by the war between FF combat fans, it shouldn't have been a numbered title or even a FF game. (I am playing some Action games, but if my favorite series gets an action direction because the director feels like it (and thinks it sells better) than I am predisposed to not like and not buy the game, many people probably think the same, who play Witcher, Elden Ring, DMC, etc. but don't want that from FF and don't want to support something like that)
Yes, the problem isn't "customers won't buy a numbered sequel at launch because they won't understand that this is self-contained" (there is ample evidence customers don't really care), it's "customers won't buy a numbered sequel at launch because the numbering now indicates nothing about what the game even is anymore". There was a time where S-E could get away with wild swings in content because of their reputation and the advantage they had over most of the market in presentation (I'd say FFXII is the exemplar of this, a top-selling and acclaimed PS2 game which is a stretch to include as a progression of the ATB formula from 1-10), but that period has ended.
 
The 1st step is accepting that FF is now another JRPG series and not the flag bearer of the subgenre anymore. Square's moves with the IP used to shape the landscape and set new standards for devs to aspire to, that's clearly not happening anymore.

The other step needs to be about making Switch 2 the main development platform for a lot of reasons.

Sign whatever marketing deals you want with whoever, but don't over-polish the graphics and expand the scope to the point where it's not reasonably playable on Switch 2.

Can anyone explain why its important for FF to be ''technical showcases''? It doesn't seem to lead to any hype or interest from people outside JRPG fans in any case. Square Enix did everything to make XVI a technical showcase on the PS5, didn't lead to anything of note, except increasing the budget.
Modern-era FF has been built on this very concept. See FF7 bringing in new fans thanks in large part to class-leading graphics.

This idea that FF can "go backwards" graphics-wise and still sell millions is untested and will take down the brand even further if not done right.
 
is that true? honest question
I mean, in terms of sales volume which are the best selling ones?
Even the very succesfull Persona is almost in line with FF sales, no?


Final Fantasy is still by far the best selling JRPG series, outside pokemon

Persona 5 is still the latest in the franchise and it’s an entire series unto itself with like 5+ entries. Metaphor was reported to have sold over 1 million copies in it’s launch month and I doubt it’s sold 2m since.
 
is that true? honest question
I mean, in terms of sales volume which are the best selling ones?
Even the very succesfull Persona is almost in line with FF sales, no?

Outside of P5, which has sold about as many copies as FFVII Remake did in almost twice the amount of time on twice as many platforms, Persona games generally aren't big sellers. The franchise as a whole has sold over 23m copies in almost 30 years.
 
Sales numbers alone aren't the important factor for the companies making these JRPG games, its what they get in profits from them. We know that Atlus get more profit from their Persona games than Square Enix from modern FF, given that Square Enix seems to be losing money every time they launch a new mainline FF game these days.
 
Do this


This is a presentation from 2017 by FFXV RPG system director Takatsugu Nakazawa (who later directed XV Royal Edition in 2018), who was also a battle planner on FFVII, FFVIII, FFX and battle director on FFX-2, in which he talks about what he would do if he were to make the next FF.

There's a transcript of what he says there in this reddit thread.


In terms of FFXV game design, that’s about the extent that I can talk to about. But since I’m here and since we have this wonderful opportunity, we have a little bonus topic.

Slide 12

Maybe we caught you guys by surprise, but we’re going to talk a little bit about the next Final Fantasy.

Slide 13

But unfortunately, this is straight-up, honest talk. If I were to make the next Final Fantasy, these are the kind of things that I would like to do. So I want to share some of my ideas with you guys.

While I have been on Final Fantasy for a very long time, I’m not a producer or director, so I don’t even know when the next Final Fantasy’s coming. I don’t know if I’m even going to be on the team. So this is all just what’s in my head.

But if I were to make the next FF, I have some ideas in mind about things I like to do differently. I’d like to share what’s in my head.

Slide 14

Similar to the previous section, from a game design perspective, I break it out into categories I want to try something new and areas I want to carry over from what we did last time.

Slide 15

We learned a lot of things as we endeavored on from FFXV, and things that—three features that I’d like to carry over and continue in the next Final Fantasy would be the System Features, the Action Battle System, and the Open World design.

System Features is a repetition from the traditions that we kept for FFXV, but the identity of Final Fantasy is that all those RPG elements are in place. No matter what, we want to make sure everything is included for every numbered Final Fantasy title.

The second feature we’d like to carry over is the Action Battle System from FFXV.

What we learned from our experience in designing the Action Battle System for FFXV is that players have two ways of winning in battle. One is the traditional RPG style where they’re just strong enough to beat certain enemies. But on the other hand, you could kind of encounter enemies that are much stronger, but if you’re god at the Action, you could actually win. So after we designed FFXV, we thought there’s a lot of room and a lot of potential for this kind of system.

In keeping, obviously, RPG at the baseline, we want to make sure that the next—I want to make sure that my next game would have an Action Battle System that really does take advantage of the RPG aspect.

And lastly, what we did with FFXV, the open-world design, that’s something I’d like to explore once again.

We broke a lot of traditions in designing an open-world game with FFXV, and we saw a lot of things—we saw a lot of the potential that an open-world design has, and we don’t want to go backwards. We want to continue moving forward in this direction and it’s something I’d like to definitely put in place for my next FF.

These are the three things I would probably carry over from FFXV, but obviously, if we just did this, it would just be another FFXV. So there are certain things that I’d like to change next time around.

Slide 16

The three things would be Story Placement, Ability and Leveling System, and Leveling Balance.

For Story Placement, when you really think about it, FFXV had a very similar design with previous FF where the main story was clear to the player, and the optional side quests were also very obvious to the player.

What I’m thinking is to really take advantage of the open-world design, maybe the main story shouldn’t always be so obvious to the player. Maybe the player should have to explore and kind of find out where they need to go next. And maybe it’s just the line between the main story and the side quests are a little blurred where it’s more of a gradation and more of a blend, so the side quests are more of an extension of the main story. And so it’s more about the players seeing the adventure through on their own.

Ability and Leveling System, when we look at FFXV, it was actually pretty orthodox. I mean, the design was different, but what was intended to do was the same as any other FF.

With FFVII, there was the Materia System. FFX, there was the Sphere Grid. FFs always have something new in their back pocket, and next time around, I would like to make a brand new system.

One idea I have is for every player character that becomes part of your party, they have a different means of leveling up.

Maybe one character would have a very traditional means of leveling up where it’s really just about gaining experience and leveling up. Maybe a second character, their leveling up is purely based on how many times they actually attack enemies and how many times they get hit by enemies. Maybe a third character is a blue mage, and they level up only when they learn a new spell from an enemy. Maybe if we want to make a true open-world design, maybe the characters all should have different features, different attributes, and design a leveling system that revolves around those unique characters.

If we take it to a far extreme, maybe there’s one character who doesn’t level up at all, but their strength is completely dictated by the amount of accessories and the amount of equipment that they equip.

Maybe it’s about building off the uniqueness of each of the characters. Maybe where they’re from in that open world dictates what kind of character they are, how they level up. But a game that’s that open, I think, has a lot of potential to be fun.

Again, going back to the earlier point, ability is more on a horizontal axis, so what we plan to do is just make sure that it gives you more options and more variety in your gameplay style. The leveling system is dictated to how strong your party is, but it’s this blend of these two systems that we think that we could take a new approach next time around.

And the last feature that we’d want to change up is the Leveling Balance.

For FFXV, this is an area where we change up. It used to be your character level-based, but now it’s more playtime based. The reason we did that for FFXV was we wanted to make sure, because it’s an open world you could explore how you want to, we want to make sure everyone has a good experience in and they don’t encounter anything that hinders their overall game experience.

But one thing I learned from designing a playtime-based Leveling Balance for FFXV is that while you can explore everywhere in the world, the entire world felt a little flat in terms of there weren’t that many areas that were drastically different than one another. So that was definitely one takeaway that I feel I got from FFXV.

Maybe next time around the main story should still be clear to the player, but maybe the side quests offer up a lot more color. Maybe some are extremely difficult, some are extremely easy, some are very serious, some are very fun. But just giving a lot more variety to this open-world design and really making it feel cohesive is my goal for the next time I come around to making an FF.

As you explore an open world where there’s a broad scope of places and locations, maybe if you encounter a really bizarre mission, you get a really bizarre reward. Or if you are able to conquer a really really difficult mission, you get a really powerful weapon as a reward. It’s putting all those things in mind where what’s around the next corner is unpredictable is what I’d like to explore.

These are kind of the ideas I have in my head about what I want to do differently next time I make an FF—the Story Placement, the Ability and Leveling System, and Leveling Balance—all revolving around this open world is something I’d like to see and realize.

As I said earlier before this section, I’m not a producer or a director, so I don’t know what the next FF is going to be like. But if it were up to me, this is the kind of things I’d like to try.

Slide 17

But with that being said, our team—Business Division 2—after we finish FINAL FANTASY XV, we’re constantly working on something new, and so we hope that you guys look forward to our next project.
 
@ Bold, couldn't agree more. Also give us some depth and humanity to characters that isn't "Dude yelling for XYZ" reasons. I nominate Natusko Ishikawa, I know she's been relinquishing some responsibilities over time on XIV, she looks like she could be available to do stuff on something.

I'm sadly not familiar with her work since I haven't played FF14 but I have heard great things about FF14 story so I'm sure she would be an excellent pick to write a good story for the series. In my opinion, another great writer SE could use for the series would be Hiroto Furuya, he was the director and scenario writer for Harvestella and the story in this game is among the best in a SE game.
 
Outside of P5, which has sold about as many copies as FFVII Remake did in almost twice the amount of time on twice as many platforms, Persona games generally aren't big sellers. The franchise as a whole has sold over 23m copies in almost 30 years.
While Persona isn't as popular as FF as of now, franchise total sales is an absolutely awful way to gauge this. There are three times as more mainline FF games than Persona games and I'm pretty sure FF beats Persona in number of spinoffs too. Also, Persona's popularity is relatively recent.
 
Outside of P5, which has sold about as many copies as FFVII Remake did in almost twice the amount of time on twice as many platforms, Persona games generally aren't big sellers. The franchise as a whole has sold over 23m copies in almost 30 years.
Thank you. The narrative has gone completely sideways. Persona is a huge JRPG franchise with, in my opinion, a ceiling of “huge JRPG franchise.” Final Fantasy has a ceiling of “huge franchise.”

I’d be interested to see a head to head comparison between the Persona series and the FFVII sub-franchise. OG, Compilation, Remake project. The timelines line up pretty nicely for a comparison.
 
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