• Akira Toriyama passed away

    Let's all commemorate together his legendary work and his impact here

GamesIndustry.biz: Chris Dring "Xbox sales flatlining in Europe, majority of Xbox games coming to PS5 at some point, MS putting less focus on GamePass

Phil should really read that Yamauchi article Celine uncovered a little bit ago.

‘If users can play the same game on every single system out there, then there’ll be no reason to buy one system over the other,’ he said. ‘It’ll be just like buying a TV; no matter which one you buy you’ll still have all the same channels.

‘In the game business, software is our lifeblood. If that software becomes the same everywhere then there’ll be zero difference between companies. The marketplace will just turn into a giant hardware war.’
 
Couple of things about this for me:
I think some accounts on X are exaggerating the headlines when Chris said "dev that shipped a major game last year"(Really think Larian). I don't believe he was talking about a company but an individual, maybe that person did not see a reason to ship on Xbox, that does not mean that Larian or any major publisher is even thinking on not supporting Xbox in the future.

Regarding the Xbox handheld, if it is something like the Switch but all digital, I would love it, with a Dock to give it more performance, I'm just not sure how well it would do commercially, it would just play the same games as a steamdeck. Hardcore Xbox fans would get it, but I don't see it going to the Masses.
 
Phil should really read that Yamauchi article Celine uncovered a little bit ago.

‘If users can play the same game on every single system out there, then there’ll be no reason to buy one system over the other,’ he said. ‘It’ll be just like buying a TV; no matter which one you buy you’ll still have all the same channels.

‘In the game business, software is our lifeblood. If that software becomes the same everywhere then there’ll be zero difference between companies. The marketplace will just turn into a giant hardware war.’
Eh, I disagree with Yamauchi here, though.

IF your software is built around a certain specialized hardware, that makes sense for someone like Nintendo. Stuff like building games around the GameCube's analog shoulder buttons, the Wii's motion controls or the Wii U's 2ns screen.

But when the only reason for sw exclusitivity is who owns a franchise, like it is with MS and Sony, a general hardware that runs all the games would be preferable for consumers. People can choose whether they play their MS-games on a PS5 or their Sony-games on an Xbox. People will choose hardware based on design and bonus-features, like it is with TVs, and what's wrong with that?
 
Eh, I disagree with Yamauchi here, though.

IF your software is built around a certain specialized hardware, that makes sense for someone like Nintendo. Stuff like building games around the GameCube's analog shoulder buttons, the Wii's motion controls or the Wii U's 2ns screen.

But when the only reason for sw exclusitivity is who owns a franchise, like it is with MS and Sony, a general hardware that runs all the games would be preferable for consumers. People can choose whether they play their MS-games on a PS5 or their Sony-games on an Xbox. People will choose hardware based on design and bonus-features, like it is with TVs, and what's wrong with that?
Yamauchi isn' arguing what is best for consumers. He is arguing what is the best for console hardware companies and their interest in sales. Xbox started the trend on releasing games on PC day and date, and afterwards the decline of Xbox hardware accelerated.

I also think Sony potentially going day and date on PC will lead to PS console sales declining faster coming years.
 
Longterm I'm not sure what could offset the interest in high power consoles for both Sony and MS. We could very well be in this situation for Sony in a couple of gens. Console business is a brutal industry and a lot of money is being poured into things that might not be sustainable.

I suppose it's possible both PlayStation and MS become companion consoles to a niche userbase vs PC/mobile players.
 
Couple of things about this for me:
I think some accounts on X are exaggerating the headlines when Chris said "dev that shipped a major game last year"(Really think Larian). I don't believe he was talking about a company but an individual, maybe that person did not see a reason to ship on Xbox, that does not mean that Larian or any major publisher is even thinking on not supporting Xbox in the future.

Regarding the Xbox handheld, if it is something like the Switch but all digital, I would love it, with a Dock to give it more performance, I'm just not sure how well it would do commercially, it would just play the same games as a steamdeck. Hardcore Xbox fans would get it, but I don't see it going to the Masses.
Companies are probably a little frustrated that they can't due to power reasons release their games on Nintendo platforms, when Nintendo ecosystem is bigger and have an active user base that is ready to buy lots of games. While gamepass has made the Xbox ecosystem an ecosystem reluctant to buy games at all.
 
Yamauchi's perspective doesn't reflect that there's been no growth in console sales in the twenty years since he made those remarks, that all the hardware is the same, that <70 games account for 80% of playtime on PC / Xbox / PS5, and that a significant portion of the market is on the phone and is mostly in games that don't resemble anything available in 2001.
 
That's a poor way to evaluate and analyze a business. It's equivalent to saying "well they never make mistakes".

Yeah they paid a ginormous premium and they will also need years and years of work and effort to regain the value they spent on just the asset itself. An acquisition is bad if it can't provide real value creation (most acquisition don't create value for reference). Unless we just operate from the standpoint that MS is so big it can just buy and own everything so every purchase it makes is good, I'll need a better argument than what has been provided so far.
assets gets devalued on how you use it (ie Halo) hence what they bought needs to generate for itself to deemed worthy for the price
I don't mean to imply that Microsoft commits no mistakes or that assets don't vary in value, I only meant to say that Activision under Microsoft doesn't need to make 70 billion dollars before being considered profitable. Of course then the main worry is that the asset may devalue from the, at the time already premium, price paid by MS, but on that point we have yet to see any major moves related to Activision yet from MS, whether they are gonna fuck it up or not, who knows.
Imagine letting people install steam.. might aswell name it xbox steam machine
but the issue is that 30% xbox get per game sale are gone, valve is getting it instead and on top of that gamepass subs relies on xbox series sales how can they grow this?
An Xbox Deck of sorts could be less subsidized in cost and try to at least have better margins on hardware. They could go the same route of the Steam Deck itself and allow other OS's to be installed, most players wouldn't go through the effort of committing that kind of modification to their machine IMO, so they could still rely on a 30% cut most of the time. Could be a potential new avenue to push Game Pass subs too. IMO, they have a lot of ways to attempt an less costly alternative to their existing hardware strategy, and still have a foot in the platform business.
Phil should really read that Yamauchi article Celine uncovered a little bit ago.

‘If users can play the same game on every single system out there, then there’ll be no reason to buy one system over the other,’ he said. ‘It’ll be just like buying a TV; no matter which one you buy you’ll still have all the same channels.

‘In the game business, software is our lifeblood. If that software becomes the same everywhere then there’ll be zero difference between companies. The marketplace will just turn into a giant hardware war.’
I have to disagree, the marketplace is a giant hardware war because decades ago companies (Atari, Nintendo, Sega, SNK, etc.) decided that the main selling point of their video-game hardware is that it is technologically superior to the competition, or from other hardware that came before.

Nintendo simply jumped off the hardware race and left the two tech titans to fight it off, and they have mostly found massive success since, why? They probably remembered they are a video-game company, not a tech company. Their hardware has since been generally cheaper, and their games generally more expensive, and it works!

The ever increasing costs, higher and higher definition graphics, and progressively more expensive hardware, is pushed by the tech titans that kept up that decades long race, it's just that it's becoming increasingly obvious that these kinds of games, the ones that "Can only run on the MOTHERFUCKER 5K", aren't the most popular or the most profitable.

More hardware neutral platforms, like PC (Steam, EGS, GOG, etc.), tend to show that even more, the most popular games can run on a toaster. A world where games support more hardware, not less, would have a lower focus on graphics and cutting edge hardware.

Edit: I think about this stuff way too much, but an thought came to me now, the Video-Game industry needs to stop trying to validate itself through high end hardware, it doesn't need to do that, not anymore at least, the public is already past it.
 
It is my perception - based on 0 facts, full disclosure - that PC gaming is more popular with Gen Z and Gen Alpha than it was with previous generations.

I think that social media, Discord, YouTube, TikTok and all of that has made it easier for young people to understand how to build gaming PCs and how PC gaming works.

Nintendo is another matter, but if both Xbox and PlayStation decline in hardware sales when compared to their previous consoles then we might start to consider this as being something that is indeed happening.
 
It is my perception - based on 0 facts, full disclosure - that PC gaming is more popular with Gen Z and Gen Alpha than it was with previous generations.

I think that social media, Discord, YouTube, TikTok and all of that has made it easier for young people to understand how to build gaming PCs and how PC gaming works.

Nintendo is another matter, but if both Xbox and PlayStation decline in hardware sales when compared to their previous consoles then we might start to consider this as being something that is indeed happening.

PC cannibalizing PS/XB sales is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Sony and Xbox needs more profits, they start porting games on PC.
Games on PC sells well but also decrease demand for console hardware and software.
Profits on console do not grow.
And the cycle continues.

Next gen PS6 and Xbox-whatever will be cheaper, worse PCs with no exclusive content.
 
It is my perception - based on 0 facts, full disclosure - that PC gaming is more popular with Gen Z and Gen Alpha than it was with previous generations.

I think that social media, Discord, YouTube, TikTok and all of that has made it easier for young people to understand how to build gaming PCs and how PC gaming works.

Nintendo is another matter, but if both Xbox and PlayStation decline in hardware sales when compared to their previous consoles then we might start to consider this as being something that is indeed happening.
Also conjecture -- but a lot of the big games / modes are not on console. Roblox is so much bigger on tablet -- and then why not jump to PC where all your streamers / wildest mods and modes are? Even Minecraft is cooler on PC than on Xbox.
 
No. Verge interview came after the podcast. I think that you should accept the reality that Xbox is going 3rd party. 4 games are just the start.
"But I don’t want to create a false expectation on those other platforms that this is somehow the first four to get over the dam and then the dam’s going to open and that everything else is coming, that’s not the plan today. I also don’t want to mislead customers on those other platforms." - Phil Spencer, The Verge Interview
 
Sony is smart, they chased Xbox in its own market first before sending the stock last to its strong market, Europe.

Xbox currently finds itself almost abandoned by third parties because almost all of them want to sign deals with Sony.

Nintendo and PC are 2 different demographics, it's a specific audience that is not in competition with PS/XB.
 
Also conjecture -- but a lot of the big games / modes are not on console. Roblox is so much bigger on tablet -- and then why not jump to PC where all your streamers / wildest mods and modes are? Even Minecraft is cooler on PC than on Xbox.
Yeah, you are right. Many games that are popular with younger people are PC-exclusive.

- CSGO
- LOL
- Valorant
- Escape From Tarkov
- War Thunder

Also, many PC-exclusive strategy games like Hearts of Iron IV and Europa Universalis IV have gotten ridiculously big in recent years and seem very popular with Gen Z.

If we have a generation of people growing up with PC gaming and being used to it since they were very young, I don't know what the future of high-end consoles will be in 20 or 30 years.

People a decade ago thought that mobile would kill consoles, but PC gaming is looking like a much bigger threat in the long term.

The popularity of smartphones has also probably made spending say 1,000 dollars to build a gaming PC seem cheaper than a decade ago or two.

Suddenly a 1,000 dollar PC does not seem particularly expensive when you are spending 700 dollars on a phone every 3 years like many young people do.

Anecdotally, I've seen 3 friends switch from console to PC in the last few years.
 
"But I don’t want to create a false expectation on those other platforms that this is somehow the first four to get over the dam and then the dam’s going to open and that everything else is coming, that’s not the plan today. I also don’t want to mislead customers on those other platforms." - Phil Spencer, The Verge Interview

Not the plan today. Tomorrow is.

Also, you've missed the first part :

You mentioned that Starfield and Indiana Jones aren’t part of the four despite rumors, but will those ever come to PS5? Can you rule that out?

I don’t think we should as an industry ever rule out a game going to any other platform. We’re focused on these four games and learning from the experience.


He said in podcast that Indiana and Starfield aren't part of the first 4. But they will become other part of next batch of games and they will come to other platforms. Don't be shocked later.
 
Yeah, you are right. Many games that are popular with younger people are PC-exclusive.

- CSGO
- LOL
- Valorant
- Escape From Tarkov
- War Thunder

Also, many PC-exclusive strategy games like Hearts of Iron IV and Europa Universalis IV have gotten ridiculously big in recent years and seem very popular with Gen Z.

If we have a generation of people growing up with PC gaming and being used to it since they were very young, I don't know what the future of high-end consoles will be in 20 or 30 years.

People a decade ago thought that mobile would kill consoles, but PC gaming is looking like a much bigger threat in the long term.

The popularity of smartphones has also probably made spending say 1,000 dollars to build a gaming PC seem cheaper than a decade ago or two.

Suddenly a 1,000 dollar PC does not seem particularly expensive when you are spending 700 dollars on a phone every 3 years like many young people do.

Anecdotally, I've seen 3 friends switch from console to PC in the last few years.
That also makes the market way harder too, since a vast majority of PC players are stuck on 1-2 games.

Granted this also happens on consoles, but on PC you have plenty of much bigger f2p games like CSGO, DOTA, LOL, VALORANT, etc...
 
Nintendo and PC are 2 different demographics, it's a specific audience that is not in competition with PS/XB.
I dont agree. Its unreliable evidence, but you can see PC gamers pirating Nintendo games as a sign that they would still play those games. To some extent its true, I dont think PC gamers would be buying a game like Mario Strikers in droves. But they are gamers that buy and play platformers, RPGs, puzzle games, etc.
 
I dont agree. Its unreliable evidence, but you can see PC gamers pirating Nintendo games as a sign that they would still play those games. To some extent its true, I dont think PC gamers would be buying a game like Mario Strikers in droves. But they are gamers that buy and play platformers, RPGs, puzzle games, etc.
Playing a game for free does not mean they are willing to pay for it. And as long as piracy of Nintendo games is so prolific on PC, official Nintendo releases can't compete with the free pirated Nintendo games anyway for PC gamers.
 
I dont agree. Its unreliable evidence, but you can see PC gamers pirating Nintendo games as a sign that they would still play those games. To some extent its true, I dont think PC gamers would be buying a game like Mario Strikers in droves. But they are gamers that buy and play platformers, RPGs, puzzle games, etc.
Nintendo is part of NATO while PC is part of BRICS. (Trends Google if you want to compare Steam with Nintendo Switch)

You will see that it is not at all the same market.

Everyone will tell you that the PC, mobile, PlayStation and Nintendo markets are complementary except Xbox which is in the same niche as PlayStation.
 
Playing a game for free does not mean they are willing to pay for it. And as long as piracy of Nintendo games is so prolific on PC, official Nintendo releases can't compete with the free pirated Nintendo games anyway for PC gamers
This is ridiculous lmao. If people acted like you think they do every single game on GOG wouldnt sell. RIP Baldurs Gate 3 sales on PC, clearly they couldnt compete with the free copies on pirating sites.
 
There is no dimension where if Nintendo released it's games on PC it wouldn't see it's hardware sales take a notable dip. And unlike Sony and MS, the Switch hardware provides a shit ton to Nintendo's revenue and profit. There is no reason technical reason any of these companies can't be multiplatform but the point is that specialized hardware and an ecosystem provides a more profitable model compared to being a pure software house.

Why the fuck would anyone buy Nintendo hardware if it wasn't for Nintendo games? Yeah the Switch is a hybrid machine which has some value but half of the software is Nintendo published and a huge chunk of the remaining software is available on other platforms.

The only reason these markets don't converge is because Nintendo (and Sony to some extent though they are actively diminishing it) have had enough unique software to cultivate player bases. But if you erode the unique software then obviously you give less reason to buy your hardware over other options.

The only reason to you would want to do this is if you can't support a hardware ecosystem. And that's gonna be down to cost of game development and cost of hardware. But assuming you can keep those in check what exactly is the argument to erode your own ecosystem? If you're a third party then duh, I get it. If you are a hardware maker though?
 
This is ridiculous lmao. If people acted like you think they do every single game on GOG wouldnt sell. RIP Baldurs Gate 3 sales on PC, clearly they couldnt compete with the free copies on pirating sites.
There are entire subreddits only about pirating Nintendo games, its entirely out in the open. Hard thing to compete with for Nintendo. Sony doesn't have that problem so the PC market shift is much more logical for them.
 
There are entire subreddits only about pirating Nintendo games, its entirely out in the open. Hard thing to compete with for Nintendo. Sony doesn't have that problem so the PC market shift is much more logical for them.
Maybe I’m interpreting this wrong, but from what I’m getting, you seem to think that Sony games don’t get pirated. If that’s the case, then it’s not a leap in logic to think people pirate Sony games as well, yet people still buy PC ports of Sony games. Nintendo games just get more coverage for a variety of reasons - one of them being that some people genuinely enjoy Nintendo’s games but wish to run them on more modern hardware. The Switch has been underpowered for its entire life - the trade off of carrying games on the go more than made up for it and is one of the key reasons the console is successful but there are some gamers that have time to spare and want to play Nintendo games in the best quality they can.

Another point to being up is that not every person who pirates does so because they want the game for free. Some do, but by nature they were never going to buy the games anyway. And IMO it’s not a leap in logic to assume that they still aren’t buying Sony games. Yet Sony’s PC ports still sell, so I imagine it’d be the same for Nintendo, but on a bigger scale. If they ever did that, anyways.
 
There are entire subreddits only about pirating Nintendo games, its entirely out in the open. Hard thing to compete with for Nintendo. Sony doesn't have that problem so the PC market shift is much more logical for them.
Sony and Microsoft games are in the general piracy pool of PC games. A specific Nintendo piracy subculture only exists because of the emulation scene.
 
Sony and Microsoft games are in the general piracy pool of PC games. A specific Nintendo piracy subculture only exists because of the emulation scene.
And the ease of jailbreaking a launch Switch. If there was a PS5 emulator that was as good as Yuzu or Ryujinx, or an extremely easy way to jailbreak the PS5 and install backups, there would be a /r/PS5Piracy subreddit as well.
 
Nintendo won't put their games on PC until they start having multiple Wii U-level bombs. Their walled garden approach is far too important to their success.
 
1. Same way that Steam Deck generates money for Valve -- you make it easier to use your own store, but you leave the option for other stores to reduce barriers to specific large games / ecosystems (e.g., this is how you get Genshin, etc.)

2. This would still be a GamePass delivery device

3. You still get your sales / benefits from your own software

4. You stop losing as much $ every time someone buys a console (most of whom are just upgrading from XB1)

steam deck generates money for valve like consoles generates money from the 30% cut … if you let people install other OS/Storefront on the console especially Steam which is no doubt the more popular than Xbox storefront why wouldnt you do that? And how can microsoft get more money from you after you do it?
I don't mean to imply that Microsoft commits no mistakes or that assets don't vary in value, I only meant to say that Activision under Microsoft doesn't need to make 70 billion dollars before being considered profitable. Of course then the main worry is that the asset may devalue from the, at the time already premium, price paid by MS, but on that point we have yet to see any major moves related to Activision yet from MS, whether they are gonna fuck it up or not, who knows.


An Xbox Deck of sorts could be less subsidized in cost and try to at least have better margins on hardware. They could go the same route of the Steam Deck itself and allow other OS's to be installed, most players wouldn't go through the effort of committing that kind of modification to their machine IMO, so they could still rely on a 30% cut most of the time. Could be a potential new avenue to push Game Pass subs too. IMO, they have a lot of ways to attempt an less costly alternative to their existing hardware strategy, and still have a foot in the platform business.

I have to disagree, the marketplace is a giant hardware war because decades ago companies (Atari, Nintendo, Sega, SNK, etc.) decided that the main selling point of their video-game hardware is that it is technologically superior to the competition, or from other hardware that came before.

Nintendo simply jumped off the hardware race and left the two tech titans to fight it off, and they have mostly found massive success since, why? They probably remembered they are a video-game company, not a tech company. Their hardware has since been generally cheaper, and their games generally more expensive, and it works!

The ever increasing costs, higher and higher definition graphics, and progressively more expensive hardware, is pushed by the tech titans that kept up that decades long race, it's just that it's becoming increasingly obvious that these kinds of games, the ones that "Can only run on the MOTHERFUCKER 5K", aren't the most popular or the most profitable.

More hardware neutral platforms, like PC (Steam, EGS, GOG, etc.), tend to show that even more, the most popular games can run on a toaster. A world where games support more hardware, not less, would have a lower focus on graphics and cutting edge hardware.

Edit: I think about this stuff way too much, but an thought came to me now, the Video-Game industry needs to stop trying to validate itself through high end hardware, it doesn't need to do that, not anymore at least, the public is already past it.

like i said steam deck has that ability but the more appealing store front is always steam so why bother using other store front on it? Thats the biggest difference..

especially you don’t need a subscription playing online games with friends on steam nor need it for cloud saves
 
Last edited:
And how do you make money in games? If you are a platform holder the main ways are avoiding the 30% cut on all your own software sales and service (Nintendo's main model) or the 30% fee on all third party sales and MTX (Sony and Xbox main model).

The point of investing in exclusives is to lure consumers over from Steam/PS so that you get that 30% on all their COD,FIFA, etc MTX. The problem is that Sony has been executing this strategy and MS has faltered. We are 3 and a half years into this gen and what games have they published? Flight Sim, Forza Horizons 5, Halo Infinite, Grounded, Pentiment, Hi-Fi Rush, Redfall, Starfield, and Forza Motorsport. That's about it. 3 games a year if that? Look at the switch 2017 lineup and compare.

Edit: In fact just look at the 360 in the same timeframe! Gears of war, Perfect dark zero, Viva Pinata, Mass Effect, Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, Halo 3, Forza 2, Fable 2, Braid, Halo Wars, Ninja Gaiden 2, Banjo nuts and bolts. And a ton of other smaller games and 3rd party exclusives too. MS used to do this and they saw great success from it!
Ultimately, the issue with the platform holder method being where the money is becomes self-evident: consumers have to use and engage with the platform for that to be a viable strategy. When hardware is involved, that becomes a tricky proposition if your hardware isn’t selling. It is, like most markets, as much a volume business as it is a revenue maximization business. You can maximize your take-home all you want, and it‘s a smart idea to do so, but you still need a volume of consumers to spend on your product. To simplify, $20 net profit from 2 million people is not better than even $5 net profit from 10 million people unless you can grow that audience of 2mil to 3mil or more. But the Xbox platform is not growing and their competitors for consumers are not backing down.

Starting with Xbox One, Microsoft realized that the idea of the platform needed to expand and started offering Xbox titles on PC, because Xbox One was an utter collapse of their single-cycle market advantage in hardware. One can say this has had a negative impact on Xbox hardware, but if the software profit is better as a result than it otherwise would be, so be it. Minecraft (following the Mojang acquisition around the same time as the Xbox One launch) demonstrated the value in wider software availability if you cannot grow your hardware position. This likely also motivated the creation of Game Pass, but that’s likely been counterintuitive to growth of profit generation across their entire business, with Game Pass cannibalizing profits made elsewhere. But so long as it isn’t shrinking their profits and is just shuffling them around, so be it, it furthers the expansion of the platform beyond hardware.

Xbox Series was a further dismantling of their hardware sales, so Game Pass goes front and centre. And along comes the ABK acquisition, and here we are now.

The truth is that betting on platform in a hardware context is almost assuredly something that would have led to the closure of the hardware division at Xbox regardless, the only thing that might change is the circumstances and timing. I can’t fault them for laying ground work for that now by expanding their platform beyond the boundaries of their hardware ahead of time, as if they exit hardware now, they can spin it away from being a failure and more as dropping dead weight from their overall business strategy that they’ve been setting up since 2014.
Isn't the biggest part of the acquisition the mobile department? Feel like that's what will benefit them as a publisher in the long run than anything to entire people into their console ecosystem.
Maybe you wouldnt, but id argue MS turning into the publisher of CoD and Candy Crush serves the the overall company well. It mirrors their service strategy elsewhere much more closely.
This is precisely the reason for the ABK acquisition: even if it takes them a decade to make back the money spent on the acquisition (which, really, doubt.jpg), the 11th year has them making bank on a few IPs that have few rivals for consumer spending, which they will earn for as long as those IPs are still relevant. But the likelihood is that they will make their money back far quicker than that, especially as they are taking the opportunity to expand into new sales opportunities (like CoD on Nintendo platforms, as the first and likely most immediate example).

ABK was notorious for having more value in its IPs than they ever actually used. And when it did use an IP's value, it did so by hyper-extraction to the detriment of any other, like with annualization of CoD (EA does this too, yes, but it's crap that they do it, as well); instead of getting a solid 2 years of sales out of one game, ABK was drying up sales after 9 months because consumers know a new CoD is coming anyways, so even a bi-annual release pattern means more money for less labour investment and only the absolute more-money-than-sense diehard CoD fanboys will be upset about that. On the Blizzard side, the over-reliance on live service money cows like Overwatch and WoW became their entire brand, which led to much of the same.

So there are huge gaps and profit-generating opportunities being unexplored at ABK, and MS likely saw the same when the acquisition was considered and identified these unexplored profit-making ideas would accelerate the ROI on the acquisition. There is, of course, a chance they screw it all up, but I can at least identify the intention.
 
Nintendo won't put their games on PC until they start having multiple Wii U-level bombs. Their walled garden approach is far too important to their success.

There is a strong belief at Nintendo that the console itself is a fundamental part of the "Nintendo DNA" that needs to be characteristic of their games.
Nintendo approaches game development with a holistic view of the user experience. The game is simply a part of the "Nintendo experience", and interacting with the physical console in itself is also an equally important part of the experience.
Releasing games on a uncontrolled enviroment like a PC is fundamentally against this (very japanese) approach to providing a service.

I'm sure that if Nintendo ever wished to expand the reach of their console games they'd do it in a very different way compared to Sony and Microsoft.
Maybe a possible streaming service plan (included in NSO or separate) that is only playable with Nintendo approved peripherals and with visual/audio fidelity equal to the console experience.

Today however Nintendo seems more interested in becoming a proper entertainment company and expanding their reach with movie/series/toys/parks.
 
Yamauchi's perspective doesn't reflect that there's been no growth in console sales in the twenty years since he made those remarks, that all the hardware is the same, that <70 games account for 80% of playtime on PC / Xbox / PS5, and that a significant portion of the market is on the phone and is mostly in games that don't resemble anything available in 2001.

The growth almost always comes from nintendo sides because they actually keep trying to expand outside normal gaming audience.

Like with Wii+DS combo. Switch is also good example of their big expansion toward more casual audience that usually dont play games. But in the end, they are only a single player there so they can't really do much to shift more newcomers to gaming hobbies especially on dedicated gaming system
 
"But I don’t want to create a false expectation on those other platforms that this is somehow the first four to get over the dam and then the dam’s going to open and that everything else is coming, that’s not the plan today. I also don’t want to mislead customers on those other platforms." - Phil Spencer, The Verge Interview
It doesn't matter if nobody believes them.
 
Phil should really read that Yamauchi article Celine uncovered a little bit ago.

‘If users can play the same game on every single system out there, then there’ll be no reason to buy one system over the other,’ he said. ‘It’ll be just like buying a TV; no matter which one you buy you’ll still have all the same channels.

‘In the game business, software is our lifeblood. If that software becomes the same everywhere then there’ll be zero difference between companies. The marketplace will just turn into a giant hardware war.’
And what Yamauchi is really saying there is the powers a consumer market has. A consumer market has the power to dictate what is valuable to the direct end users and make companies compete on the most valuable things. Consumers dictate the market incentives (unless firms have monopoly power).

Having companies compete on making the best videogames is literally what consumers want and yields the best result on videogames. Its why consumers are even in this industry, to experience the best games.

Why would any gamer want the primary competition to be on hardware/services? Hardware is already extremely homogenised, it would be nothing but a race to the bottom on who can take the biggest losses on hardware to provide the same computer chip at a cheaper price, so no doubt a company like MSFT would love that. Same with services, complex financial engineering to obsfucate costs to consumers and another race to the bottom.

This is ultimately a creative, artistic industry.

Consumers have spoken, they value the art very highly, but companies who are struggling to compete on such a front are growing upset.

Longterm I'm not sure what could offset the interest in high power consoles for both Sony and MS. We could very well be in this situation for Sony in a couple of gens. Console business is a brutal industry and a lot of money is being poured into things that might not be sustainable.

I suppose it's possible both PlayStation and MS become companion consoles to a niche userbase vs PC/mobile players.

The console audience is the most valuable audience, pretty much the lifeblood, for the AAA/AA gaming industry and is 200M+. They aren't going anywhere.

We got to this situation because console gamers are increasingly deciding Xbox is not worth it and so slowly ceding the high end console marketplace solely to Playstation.

Yeah, you are right. Many games that are popular with younger people are PC-exclusive.

- CSGO
- LOL
- Valorant
- Escape From Tarkov
- War Thunder

Also, many PC-exclusive strategy games like Hearts of Iron IV and Europa Universalis IV have gotten ridiculously big in recent years and seem very popular with Gen Z.

If we have a generation of people growing up with PC gaming and being used to it since they were very young, I don't know what the future of high-end consoles will be in 20 or 30 years.

People a decade ago thought that mobile would kill consoles, but PC gaming is looking like a much bigger threat in the long term.

The popularity of smartphones has also probably made spending say 1,000 dollars to build a gaming PC seem cheaper than a decade ago or two.

Suddenly a 1,000 dollar PC does not seem particularly expensive when you are spending 700 dollars on a phone every 3 years like many young people do.

Anecdotally, I've seen 3 friends switch from console to PC in the last few years.

Are these games actually popular with the younger demographic? Getting data on age demographics is very hard, since parents usually buy and set the accounts on console.

Fortnite, probably the 2nd most popular younger gen game has ~40% of its playerbase on Playstation, almost twice PC. Rocket League had similar trends as well. ROBLOX is likely 10M+ MAU on PS right now.

People tend to conflate the dominance of PC in China and SK and average it around the world. The PC market in China alone is $14B and in SK its $4B. These two countries alone are near 50% of the global PC market. However most of this is accomodated by domestic firms, especially due to market regulations in China.

Outside of that:
Playstation software + subs = ~$18B
Xbox software + subs = ~$11B
Nintendo software + subs = ~$9B

Console total (sans China/SK) = ~$35B
PC total (sans China/SK) = $19B

Valve's estimated revenue from MSFT, Epic and the recent Wolfire case is only $7B (using the same accounting method as Sony/MSFT)
 
And what Yamauchi is really saying there is the powers a consumer market has. A consumer market has the power to dictate what is valuable to the direct end users and make companies compete on the most valuable things. Consumers dictate the market incentives (unless firms have monopoly power).

Having companies compete on making the best videogames is literally what consumers want and yields the best result on videogames. Its why consumers are even in this industry, to experience the best games.

Why would any gamer want the primary competition to be on hardware/services? Hardware is already extremely homogenised, it would be nothing but a race to the bottom on who can take the biggest losses on hardware to provide the same computer chip at a cheaper price, so no doubt a company like MSFT would love that. Same with services, complex financial engineering to obsfucate costs to consumers and another race to the bottom.

This is ultimately a creative, artistic industry.

Consumers have spoken, they value the art very highly, but companies who are struggling to compete on such a front are growing upset.



The console audience is the most valuable audience, pretty much the lifeblood, for the AAA/AA gaming industry and is 200M+. They aren't going anywhere.

We got to this situation because console gamers are increasingly deciding Xbox is not worth it and so slowly ceding the high end console marketplace solely to Playstation.



Are these games actually popular with the younger demographic? Getting data on age demographics is very hard, since parents usually buy and set the accounts on console.

Fortnite, probably the 2nd most popular younger gen game has ~40% of its playerbase on Playstation, almost twice PC. Rocket League had similar trends as well. ROBLOX is likely 10M+ MAU on PS right now.

People tend to conflate the dominance of PC in China and SK and average it around the world. The PC market in China alone is $14B and in SK its $4B. These two countries alone are near 50% of the global PC market. However most of this is accomodated by domestic firms, especially due to market regulations in China.

Outside of that:
Playstation software + subs = ~$18B
Xbox software + subs = ~$11B
Nintendo software + subs = ~$9B

Console total (sans China/SK) = ~$35B
PC total (sans China/SK) = $19B

Valve's estimated revenue from MSFT, Epic and the recent Wolfire case is only $7B (using the same accounting method as Sony/MSFT)
That Nintendo figure looks low given 1st party FGS alone account for 5B+ annually. Add 3rd party software, all MTX, subs, and shouldn't it be higher?
 
@Danny @Pancracio17 enough with the on-going back and forth on piracy and the subsequent derail of the thread. Also stop bringing up piracy as some sort of metric, until someone does an actual empirical study this can sit in the "free stuff is attractive bucket" but is neither here nor there on actual market discussion because it is far too loaded a subject with far too many uncertainties.
 
Slightly less than 5B in 2023FY IIRC.
Possible, depends on what their ASPs were. Nintendo sold over 92m 1st party games for FY23 (likely a bit more, that's just for the million sellers within the FY) and Switch overall sold 214m (excluding digital only games). That excludes 3DS and Wii U too, which still moved some minor software amounts (edit: 2.83m 3DS and 120k U excluding digital only software).

Nintendo gives us 1P:3P revenue ratio. Its 82% for the 9 months this FY.
That's not full revenue, it's just their cut. So 30% on digital (excluding partner deals, which likely go lower) and around 12-20% physical depending on card size and order volume.

For 3rd party revenue to be just $1-2B on Switch, the ASP would need to be only $8-17 on packaged games and $0 on digital only software and MTX. It's just not realistic, you're vastly undercounting.
 
Last edited:
And what Yamauchi is really saying there is the powers a consumer market has. A consumer market has the power to dictate what is valuable to the direct end users and make companies compete on the most valuable things. Consumers dictate the market incentives (unless firms have monopoly power).

Having companies compete on making the best videogames is literally what consumers want and yields the best result on videogames. Its why consumers are even in this industry, to experience the best games.

Why would any gamer want the primary competition to be on hardware/services? Hardware is already extremely homogenised, it would be nothing but a race to the bottom on who can take the biggest losses on hardware to provide the same computer chip at a cheaper price, so no doubt a company like MSFT would love that. Same with services, complex financial engineering to obsfucate costs to consumers and another race to the bottom.

This is ultimately a creative, artistic industry.

Consumers have spoken, they value the art very highly, but companies who are struggling to compete on such a front are growing upset.



The console audience is the most valuable audience, pretty much the lifeblood, for the AAA/AA gaming industry and is 200M+. They aren't going anywhere.

We got to this situation because console gamers are increasingly deciding Xbox is not worth it and so slowly ceding the high end console marketplace solely to Playstation.



Are these games actually popular with the younger demographic? Getting data on age demographics is very hard, since parents usually buy and set the accounts on console.

Fortnite, probably the 2nd most popular younger gen game has ~40% of its playerbase on Playstation, almost twice PC. Rocket League had similar trends as well. ROBLOX is likely 10M+ MAU on PS right now.

People tend to conflate the dominance of PC in China and SK and average it around the world. The PC market in China alone is $14B and in SK its $4B. These two countries alone are near 50% of the global PC market. However most of this is accomodated by domestic firms, especially due to market regulations in China.

Outside of that:
Playstation software + subs = ~$18B
Xbox software + subs = ~$11B
Nintendo software + subs = ~$9B

Console total (sans China/SK) = ~$35B
PC total (sans China/SK) = $19B

Valve's estimated revenue from MSFT, Epic and the recent Wolfire case is only $7B (using the same accounting method as Sony/MSFT)
Feel free to ignore -- did those estimates include margin estimates? I'd imagine they are much higher for Valve given very limited game dev, only recently (and at lower scale) hardware subsidies, etc.
 
Are these games actually popular with the younger demographic? Getting data on age demographics is very hard, since parents usually buy and set the accounts on console.

Fortnite, probably the 2nd most popular younger gen game has ~40% of its playerbase on Playstation, almost twice PC. Rocket League had similar trends as well. ROBLOX is likely 10M+ MAU on PS right now.

People tend to conflate the dominance of PC in China and SK and average it around the world. The PC market in China alone is $14B and in SK its $4B. These two countries alone are near 50% of the global PC market. However most of this is accomodated by domestic firms, especially due to market regulations in China.
Those game specifically? Definitively Valorant and LoL. And although numbers aren't as readily available, PC gaming makes a good chunk of the market in most developing countries, although mobile has gotten a grip on the even younger crowd with Stumble Guys and Free Fire.
 
The console audience is the most valuable audience, pretty much the lifeblood, for the AAA/AA gaming industry and is 200M+. They aren't going anywhere.

We got to this situation because console gamers are increasingly deciding Xbox is not worth it and so slowly ceding the high end console marketplace solely to Playstation.
But PS5 isn’t seeing enough growth to offset growing costs. It’s mostly flat from PS4.
 
Without console gaming there is no question there would be a huge shift in the type of games that would be made, we know what kind of games that are usually popular on the PC, and the fact that PC gamers are so reluctant to spend full money for games means that the whole AAA gaming space is impossible without console gamers spending full money for these type of games.
 
Without console gaming there is no question there would be a huge shift in the type of games that would be made, we know what kind of games that are usually popular on the PC, and the fact that PC gamers are so reluctant to spend full money for games means that the whole AAA gaming space is impossible without console gamers spending full money for these type of games.
Let's say all console manufacturing stopped tmrw. Are you assuming all those folks would just quit cold turkey? If not, then they would just shift channels which wouldn't impact spend for industry as a whole...

Not to mention that this would require a focus on just a very specific type of AAA
 
But PS5 isn’t seeing enough growth to offset growing costs. It’s mostly flat from PS4.
PlayStation also doesn't have to just offset rising costs in this scenario, it would have to offset the loss of Xbox in the high end console market. I've always thought it was foolish for some to champion Xbox leaving the market, especially PS fans as it doesn't necessairily help their platform of choice with 3rd party support in today's multiplatform industry. Competitively it may benefit Nintendo more from this angle as PS+Xbox always presented a larger alternate platform target collectively for 3rd parties. If it's just PS vs Nintendo (or PS only vs PS+Nintendo) the dynamics of this could fundamentally shift.
 
like i said steam deck has that ability but the more appealing store front is always steam so why bother using other store front on it? Thats the biggest difference..

especially you don’t need a subscription playing online games with friends on steam nor need it for cloud saves
Most users wouldn't bother going through the effort of switching the system OS (assuming that MS would launch a Windows/Xbox hybrid interface), as long as the price is right, even if it's targeted towards core users, and it can play the games that are popular, it will likely be fine IMO. Although here I'm assuming that Xbox just wants to still have a foot in the market, not commit the same mistake of the Windows Phone, even if it is a distant third place. However I'm also assuming that a potential Xbox Deck would drop fees for playing online, otherwise it really wouldn't have a chance to begin with.
PlayStation also doesn't have to just offset rising costs in this scenario, it would have to offset the loss of Xbox in the high end console market. I've always thought it was foolish for some to champion Xbox leaving the market, especially PS fans as it doesn't necessairily help their platform of choice with 3rd party support in today's multiplatform industry. Competitively it may benefit Nintendo more from this angle as PS+Xbox always presented a larger alternate platform target collectively for 3rd parties. If it's just PS vs Nintendo (or PS only vs PS+Nintendo) the dynamics of this could fundamentally shift.
I never liked the race the for high end graphics, so this is an all around win for me, and, IMO, would be a long-term win for the health of the industry, though I must admit that would cause a lot of short term pain, particularly to third party giants that relied on that market, specifically the ones with near decade long projects that have yet to be released.
Some PlayStation fans might not realize, but Xbox falling off the console market will become a huge problem for Sony too.
 
Most users wouldn't bother going through the effort of switching the system OS (assuming that MS would launch a Windows/Xbox hybrid interface), as long as the price is right, even if it's targeted towards core users, and it can play the games that are popular, it will likely be fine IMO. Although here I'm assuming that Xbox just wants to still have a foot in the market, not commit the same mistake of the Windows Phone, even if it is a distant third place. However I'm also assuming that a potential Xbox Deck would drop fees for playing online, otherwise it really wouldn't have a chance to begin with.

I never liked the race the for high end graphics, so this is an all around win for me, and, IMO, would be a long-term win for the health of the industry, though I must admit that would cause a lot of short term pain, particularly to third party giants that relied on that market, specifically the ones with near decade long projects that have yet to be released.
Some PlayStation fans might not realize, but Xbox falling off the console market will become a huge problem for Sony too.
I mean this is the same company just weeks ago are demanding FFXIV players to double sub to play which isnt even a thing even at Playstation

if you think most users wouldn’t bother to change their OS to steam one i guess nothing will change on their situation
 
Just checked something on the interwebz, and found that article from 2022 about a podcast where Michael Pachter predicted that Sony would cease to exist within 10 years because they'd be unable to compete with Microsoft's GamePass. I know, 20/20 in hindsight and all that, but it's pretty funny how often that analyst managed to predict the exact opposite of what actually ended up happening. He's like an anti-Nostradamus 😅

 
Yeah, I’m sure patcher is very good at his normal job and knows orders of magnitude more than most about economics and the stock market in general, but he was banned on forums 10+ years ago because he would make predictions that even the forums could laugh at.
 
Back
Top Bottom