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Final Fantasy 7 Remake + Intergrade Shipped Over 7M

While it's certainly possible, we heard the same thing about FF16 and its demo, I'm skeptical about these sorts of pre launch online "enthusiasm".

Hey, that's totally fair. Do you think Rebirth's hype among its core audience was as mediocre as FF16's among the FF audience in general, up until that point, though?

But I do get you - if a fair number of new fans did show up for FF16, that paints an even bleaker image of how many hardcore FF folks did!

Rebirth has a substantially better sales pitch than remake.

Its almost all FF7 locations vs Midgar and 8+ playable characters vs 4. Of the exclusivity period is truly on 3 months and they have steam/xbox ports ready to go then rebirth will reach 7 million significantly faster than remake.

I agree about the sales pitch. And that Remake+Rebirth limited-time two-for-one combo package is pretty damned appealing.
 
That State of Play trailer really seems to be galvanizing enthusiasm to a noteworthy extent, even among a few folks here and there who never picked up Remake. The openness on offer here is clearly enticing.
Honestly, that might be part of the problem here.... just going by the view numbers of State Of Play compared to the Nintendo Direct of the same month. Simply put, not a ton of attention with SOP.
I strongly suspect a slim to moderate decline is still in the cards, for all sorts of reasons, but Square's marketing is doing a good job right now.
Square's marketing honestly seems to be more of the same, and I don't think that you can do that now. I have been saying for years that if you are confident about your product, you have to put it in front of folks to see it. My example of that is Tekken 7, Bandai took that arcade game on the road in the US to preview the console product. They ended up in comic book conventions among other spots. It worked out every, every well for the franchise.
Judging by the Marketing, Square doesn't think that it need to approach new folks with FFVII. Which again, it a problem.

This is off-topic, but it's weird how almost all of my favorite franchises fail to court younger generations. I sometimes wonder what, if anything, that says about me.
On this side note, I don't think that it has anything to say about you but it does point out something that gamers hate. The Blue Ocean Strategy. Nintendo's theory at the time over this was that new customers were not just going to come to a Nintendo product, they had to be introduced. You had to had to go out into the world and show what a Nintendo product is capable of, otherwise people will just go about their lives blissfully unaware that Nintendo exists for their gaming wants. Which would kill the company.
It was Iwata's brain child around the time of the Wii and it has never fully gone away. Ever since, Nintendo does something to make it's presence known to the wider world (like the booth in PAX that has become a yearly affair or how wide Nintendo Direct Marketing is).
Yet gamers seem to hate it when a product that they love turns it's eyes to new comers with the intend of courting new players, despite the fact that you need them to keep the franchise going. I will be honest. I find the situation of FF today a bit sad, but Square has done it to itself... They really don't step out of controlled environments to showcase their wares, and they need to. They really don't build something that new consumers can approach and they use to.
The fact that they were showcasing through SOP is symptom of that, they need to more than what Sony provides with State of Play and at this point looking outside of it would be a good idea.
Another good idea is an old one: Final Fantasy Mystic Quest. It wasn't a big RPG, it was simple and the story was a little rote in 1992 but... that was was a taste of a full Final Fantasy, which help ease new players into it. Square needs games like that, and they refuse to build it. I think the closes they have come to that is the Bravely Series.... which has become it's own thing because it's too distance to the modern experience.

I don' knowt, I am growing old but it is clear to me that Square want's folks like myself than to concern itself with the kid staring at their Smartphones. And they need too care.
 
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Hey, that's totally fair. Do you think Rebirth's hype among its core audience was as mediocre as FF16's among the FF audience in general, up until that point, though?
I do seem to remember FF fans seeming to be fairly excited about 16 when it was revealed. It seemed more "western" as I remember the conversation around it? Honestly though this is the only gaming forum I visit anymore, and I certainly never visited game specific forums or whatever so I'm probably not qualified to answer your question. Just remember lots on here getting hyped about the demo of 16.
 
Hey, that's totally fair. Do you think Rebirth's hype among its core audience was as mediocre as FF16's among the FF audience in general, up until that point, though?

But I do get you - if a fair number of new fans did show up for FF16, that paints an even bleaker image of how many hardcore FF folks did!

I agree about the sales pitch. And that Remake+Rebirth limited-time two-for-one combo package is pretty damned appealing.

From my point of view, I think Rebirth's core audience is not just FF fans but fans of FF7 in particular, of which they are many, so it's hard to get a gauge between FF7 fans/FF fans and newcomers and how they all relate to each other when it come to the hype meter and how many will actually show up.
I do think the larger world will make those who waited or were not interested more likely to give it a chance, especially with the bundle.

When it comes to FF16 I think a lot of hype online was generated from FF14 fans, people who believed in CBU3. But a lot of FF fans and the general public are not MMO players, they didn't play FF14 so that hype didn't translate to them. Either core FF fans didn't bother or the aim of widening the appeal of their FF game completely fell flat on it's face and all that was left were FF fans who were ready for a new title after FF15. Personally I think it's the latter, just a gut feeling though.

Speaking more generally about FF16, post-release. It is a competently made game, but it does a few things much worse than many of the previous titles that you have to ask yourself why certain design choices were made. It is not as uneven in quality as, let's say FF15(especially the launch version) but because FF16 is generally a higher quality product, it makes certain lacklustre parts within the game all the more baffling. Although it doesn't surprise me all that much because the team was recently made, a part of the MMO team.

There's also the aspect of Japanese developer trying to widen their appeal, especially if they aim for the west, can sometime not quite grasp the nuances one needs to take to get to reach that audience. They know X thing is liked, but often they think they've managed X but actually, all they've achieved is just a bad version of X.
 
Nintendo marketing in the WiiU era have been pretty terrible, all that thing about YouTubers giving part of the money if they monetize videos with footage, some reviewvers like Angry Joe even had to avoid using normal footage from BOTW in the reviews, i think it was something like that.

Nintendo have been lucky that people loved the gimmick that the Switch offered and BOTW being considered one of the best games off all time in the release, the mindshare just changed.

People try to paint Square marketing like terrible but i dont ser anything they do so different like Capcom does, they have their own Square Enix Presents, they show trailers for their games online STATE of PLAY, PlayStation Showcases or Nintendo Directs, they spend a lot for marketing like you could ser billboards for FFXVI close to release.

If Octopath 2 didnt sell millions like that first game despite showing up in the Nintendo Direct and having great scores, if FFXVI despite receiving great scores, showing up in every Sony event and The Game Awards events, didnt set the world on fire with the sales.

I dont know, maybe the trailers werent good enough, people were tired of HD-2D games, people thought you had to play the other 15 FF games to understand XVI, not western enough.

This makes me think of RE4 Remake, despite being a 94 Metacritic game, being crossgen and on PC, a Remake of one of the best games of all time, It sold 3M in the release, i thought it would do much better.

Of course by now its 5M, and RE Games have great legs but sometimes i Wonder why some franchises have everything right but it doesnt blow up in popularity
 
This makes me think of RE4 Remake, despite being a 94 Metacritic game, being crossgen and on PC, a Remake of one of the best games of all time, It sold 3M in the release, i thought it would do much better.

Of course by now its 5M, and RE Games have great legs but sometimes i Wonder why some franchises have everything right but it doesnt blow up in popularity
Survival Horror isn't in some sort of giant renaissance, it's pretty much only RE holding the fort, so I don't think you can ask even the mighty RE4 to just crush all the other numbers by a mile from the get go. Cross Gen in 2023 isn't going to be a big % of sales. RE4R was/is ahead of every modern RE game in launch aligned, that's all you can ask for really.

Considering the best selling modern RE games(RE2R/RE7) right now are both above the combined OG RE4 combined SKU sales with only RE5 standing in their way, it bodes well for the long term sales of this game.

In general Capcom games are just very leggy, people are aware of their Gold Editions/yearly dropping of prices for their games over multiple years and are taking advantage of that.
 
Nintendo marketing in the WiiU era have been pretty terrible, all that thing about YouTubers giving part of the money if they monetize videos with footage, some reviewvers like Angry Joe even had to avoid using normal footage from BOTW in the reviews, i think it was something like that.

Nintendo have been lucky that people loved the gimmick that the Switch offered and BOTW being considered one of the best games off all time in the release, the mindshare just changed.

People try to paint Square marketing like terrible but i dont ser anything they do so different like Capcom does, they have their own Square Enix Presents, they show trailers for their games online STATE of PLAY, PlayStation Showcases or Nintendo Directs, they spend a lot for marketing like you could ser billboards for FFXVI close to release.

If Octopath 2 didnt sell millions like that first game despite showing up in the Nintendo Direct and having great scores, if FFXVI despite receiving great scores, showing up in every Sony event and The Game Awards events, didnt set the world on fire with the sales.

I dont know, maybe the trailers werent good enough, people were tired of HD-2D games, people thought you had to play the other 15 FF games to understand XVI, not western enough.

This makes me think of RE4 Remake, despite being a 94 Metacritic game, being crossgen and on PC, a Remake of one of the best games of all time, It sold 3M in the release, i thought it would do much better.

Of course by now its 5M, and RE Games have great legs but sometimes i Wonder why some franchises have everything right but it doesnt blow up in popularity
For FFXVI's marketing, you should take into account the director's comment.
 
Survival Horror isn't in some sort of giant renaissance, it's pretty much only RE holding the fort, so I don't think you can ask even the mighty RE4 to just crush all the other numbers by a mile from the get go. Cross Gen in 2023 isn't going to be a big % of sales. RE4R was/is ahead of every modern RE game in launch aligned, that's all you can ask for really.

Considering the best selling modern RE games(RE2R/RE7) right now are both above the combined OG RE4 combined SKU sales with only RE5 standing in their way, it bodes well for the long term sales of this game.

In general Capcom games are just very leggy, people are aware of their Gold Editions/yearly dropping of prices for their games over multiple years and are taking advantage of that.

Dead Space, RE4R, Dead Island 2, and Dying Light 2 all came out this tear. Horror genre seems to be doing well. (Or zombies at least)
 
How many fans of JRPGs even play on Xbox? Must be a miniscule audience over there, sure they will get some extra sales on there but the priority for Square Enix should probably be to get their big titles on Switch 2 as fast as possible in the future given how big the Switch is in Japan, if they can get simultanous releases on PS5 and Switch 2 in the future then their sales estimates should rise pretty big for future titles in their main franchises. Given that the JRPG franchise is so clearly Japan dominated and that almost all software charts in Japan every week is dominated by Switch games it shows that by only having the PS5 as the sole console clearly limits the launch sales pretty big for Square Enix major titles.
 
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Dead Space, RE4R, Dead Island 2, and Dying Light 2 all came out this tear. Horror genre seems to be doing well. (Or zombies at least)

This is why I said Survival Horror, DI2/Dying Light 2 isn't that.
Dead Space did decent, although I have no idea what kind of expectation EA had for the game and for Motive.

But there's no real newcomers to the space that can do well(so far) and that's pretty much a requirement(at least in my eyes) for a "renaissance" of a sub-genre.

Zombies in general seem to never completely run out of appeal provided the hook and the quality is there.
The World War Z game did fine as well.
Days Gone, although not received so warmly by critics and was quite buggy for a PS release at launch did okay in the long run and is getting 2nd set of legs on steam if we gleam at how many reviews the game has. Still no sequel because John Garvin and Jeff Ross essentially got kicked out by their peers and they decided to go in another direction. That's one big feels bad man moment, although considering Jeff Ross went on a rant about "woke reviewers" I'm pretty sure I know why they got the boot. Probably not the best work environment under them

Shame Back 4 Blood did not manage to recapture that L4D magic with the greater public.
 
Rebirth has a substantially better sales pitch than remake.

Its almost all FF7 locations vs Midgar and 8+ playable characters vs 4. If the exclusivity period is truly only 3 months and they have steam/xbox ports ready to go then rebirth will reach 7 million significantly faster than remake.

Direct sequel, lower install base, no pandemic are hindering factors. However, it feels more FF than recent entries so from a gameplay perspective it has a higher appeal.
 
Honestly, that might be part of the problem here.... just going by the view numbers of State Of Play compared to the Nintendo Direct of the same month. Simply put, not a ton of attention with SOP.
I don't think that the last SOP had a particularly high viewership. The one with Hogwards Legacy was high and I think Playstation Showcase had impressive numbers. Not to mention - who decided to start with Baby Steps???

Honestly though this is the only gaming forum I visit anymore, and I certainly never visited game specific forums or whatever so I'm probably not qualified to answer your question.
The rule of thumb is that online discourse is rarely reflects the real world - a lot of online talks are still about JRPGs being system sellers so...No matter what forum, it always have that japan skewed discourse (probably due to people growing up with PS1 and PS2). It is always hilarious to see people hyping up some niche JRPG and then claim that nobody plays COD or Roblox.

When it comes to FF16 I think a lot of hype online was generated from FF14 fans, people who believed in CBU3. But a lot of FF fans and the general public are not MMO players, they didn't play FF14 so that hype didn't translate to them
Well it did not help that FF16 was not available on PC...And PC has a quite healthy FF14 community (don't know if it was bigger than PS or not though). By and large, I think that people who were planning to buy FF games, did buy it. But that's it. This specific FF game just did not translate to a bigger market.

How many fans of JRPGs even play on Xbox? Must be a miniscule audience over there, sure they will get some extra sales on there but the priority for Square Enix should probably be to get their big titles on Switch 2 as fast as possible in the future given how big the Switch is in Japan, if they can get simultanous releases on PS5 and Switch 2 in the future then their sales estimates should rise pretty big for future titles in their main franchises. Given that the JRPG franchise is so clearly Japan dominated and that almost all software charts in Japan every week is dominated by Switch games it shows that by only having the PS5 as the sole console clearly limits the launch sales pretty big for Square Enix major titles.
I find it funny how people are constantly trying to disparage Xbox in regards of JRPGs. If you don't release games on of that specific genre on Xbox, you can't grow the community who play those games. Square Enix's result of selling PS consoles more (does FF even sell consoles at this point?) than to sell their games has finally caught up with them. There is a reason why other publishers are stopped doing time exclusive deals like Square Enix. Even if we exclude Xbox, not a single publisher locks their ips from PC because it is obvious for everybody that PC is an enormous platform.

Direct sequel, lower install base, no pandemic are hindering factors. However, it feels more FF than recent entries so from a gameplay perspective it has a higher appeal.
I think FF7R will do better than FF16, but less than FF7R P1. The main problem with FF IP is - due to Square Enix releases - it basically being sold to people, who would have bought the game anyway.
 
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Well it did not help that FF16 was not available on PC...And PC has a quite healthy FF14 community (don't know if it was bigger than PS or not though). By and large, I think that people who were planning to buy FF games, did buy it. But that's it. This specific FF game just did not translate to a bigger market.

I hadn't even thought that the FF14 PC community not being able to play FF16 right off the bat.
Yeah, that gives an extra dimension to the lost potential of sales, separate from the general public, by not having the PC version ready.
 
I hadn't even thought that the FF14 PC community not being able to play FF16 right off the bat.
Yeah, that gives an extra dimension to the lost potential of sales, separate from the general public, by not having the PC version ready.
FF16 had a lot going against it - no PC, no open world, no FF7 nostalgic factor, no JRPG (not sure if it is a plus or minus though).
 
Nintendo marketing in the WiiU era have been pretty terrible, all that thing about YouTubers giving part of the money if they monetize videos with footage, some reviewvers like Angry Joe even had to avoid using normal footage from BOTW in the reviews, i think it was something like that.

Nintendo have been lucky that people loved the gimmick that the Switch offered and BOTW being considered one of the best games off all time in the release, the mindshare just changed.

People try to paint Square marketing like terrible but i dont ser anything they do so different like Capcom does, they have their own Square Enix Presents, they show trailers for their games online STATE of PLAY, PlayStation Showcases or Nintendo Directs, they spend a lot for marketing like you could ser billboards for FFXVI close to release.

If Octopath 2 didnt sell millions like that first game despite showing up in the Nintendo Direct and having great scores, if FFXVI despite receiving great scores, showing up in every Sony event and The Game Awards events, didnt set the world on fire with the sales.

I dont know, maybe the trailers werent good enough, people were tired of HD-2D games, people thought you had to play the other 15 FF games to understand XVI, not western enough.

This makes me think of RE4 Remake, despite being a 94 Metacritic game, being crossgen and on PC, a Remake of one of the best games of all time, It sold 3M in the release, i thought it would do much better.

Of course by now its 5M, and RE Games have great legs but sometimes i Wonder why some franchises have everything right but it doesnt blow up in popularity
This feels like a really disingenuous comment in so many ways.

Nintendo did not just luck out with the Switch, their marketing got significantly better from the Switch era onwards. It wasn't just that the concept resonated more (though that's certainly the most important factor), Nintendo put in the effort to have better marketing.

Resident Evil 4 sold 3 million in 2 days, making it the fasest selling game in the series since RE6. There's no way to spin that into a negative result, especially when that is a 2 day figure vs a first week one. Should it have done a bit better? Probably, but we're also in an era where Resident Evil mainline is the most milked it's been since the late 90's. You can't even say the legs are "just good because of sales", either, because it's already sold an additional ~2m without any price cuts and will probably get to 6-7 million before it gets its first official one.

Square is bad at advertising their smaller projects, and this is pretty much undeniable. Not only did games like Octopath 2 have little marketing presence, but we saw in the final performance that it had an actual impact on sales. NEO should be a testament to this being the reality.

The only thing I can really agree with is that it's surprising how little these FF games catch on relative to how good their trailers are and how they're shown at the biggest gaming events. It really is quite odd. I think with XVI, it's an example of the concept just not resonating with people, and the trailers also focused a lot on the combat and not the party members. For 7R, I really don't know what it could have been since the trailers were very good, but I have a feeling that FF7 being remade was less relevant to the general core demographic than a lot of people thought it was (which is why Rebirth basically being marketed like a new open world FF game is so relevant, even if it's not technically open).
 
You're not going to know how well the FF7RB trailer was received by online discussion. Its views aren't anything impressive compared to FF7R itself in the past. And FF, as mentioned many times, has a strong core audience. Just a hundred thousand fans can make a tremendous amount of noise. FF likely has a good 1M+ hardcore fans eating this stuff up. The chatter doesn't mean a whole lot in that regard. We heard the same chatter about FFXVI's demo and then it turns out that the game basically launched to the low end of SE's expectations so clearly the whole thing was artificial and likely just pushed by a smaller group of fans and journalists online with no basis in reality.

By the time FF7RB releases, there will be roughly 60M PS5 consoles out there. Nothing will be holding it back and even install base excuses will sound sillier than they do already. We'll know by its launch sales just how well the reception to its marketing has been, as well as the reception to the original game. FFXVI launched to 3M which was the low end of SE's expectations. FF7R launched to 3.5M but, important to note, it did have a pandemic boost which was substantial for the industry at the time. Now that would indicate that FF7R likely would've launched to less than 3.5M without that, but we don't know how much of a difference that'd mean.

The question is how is the conversation surrounding FF7RB supposed to take form. This is the first time SE has made a mainline Final Fantasy game series with sequels built in mind from the beginning. The story itself is more traditional in that regard, so this isn't some tacked on sequel like FFX-2 or FFXII-2 etc. Traditionally you expect sequels to perform better if the original was received well, but how much do those past FF examples matter?

The one thing that may work for it is that Sony has no exclusives lined up after Spidey 2 and it's essentially a wasteland, so the hardcore Sony fans will definitely be paying more attention to other AAA exclusives. Similar to how I'd imagine FFXVI would've benefitted this year. I don't think that'll cancel out the pandemic conditions by any stretch of the imagination, but any little bit helps.

I think 3-4M is basically the range for FF7RB since SE is obviously treating it as a proper AAA mainline Final Fantasy. If 3M was low end expectations for FFXVI, I'd imagine whatever their expectations are for FF7RB will be similar. Maybe 3M on the lower end, and 4M on the higher end (4M is likely the minimum FFXV sold on PS4 at launch from the PS4/Xbox breakdowns we have). That range would still mean no growth for the franchise, but it'd mean no decline from where FF7R and FFXVI ended up at least, and 4M would at least maybe be a point in the right direction for the franchise for it's stagnation/decline since FFXV.

Less than 3M, and I'd say they should be very worried about FFXVII and FF7 Part 3.

The smart move to me though is pretty clear. Get the games released on Xbox/PC and Switch 2 if it's possible. Better late than never if only to start setting some form of expectations. You can then maybe counteract the decline/stagnation on Playstation by trying to get buyers on the other platforms. Xbox/PC should be good for 2-3M between them if FFXV is any indication (and that likely could've done more had it not been killed by SE in 2018). Switch 2 is the big question mark. There's bound to be some crossover between audiences there, but for all we know, they get 2-3M buyers on that one alone. The key is obviously going to be whether the platform can run the games.

They need to be thinking about how to best set up FFXVII for success when it decides to saunter along 6-8 years from now.
 
You're not going to know how well the FF7RB trailer was received by online discussion. Its views aren't anything impressive compared to FF7R itself in the past. And FF, as mentioned many times, has a strong core audience. Just a hundred thousand fans can make a tremendous amount of noise. FF likely has a good 1M+ hardcore fans eating this stuff up. The chatter doesn't mean a whole lot in that regard. We heard the same chatter about FFXVI's demo and then it turns out that the game basically launched to the low end of SE's expectations so clearly the whole thing was artificial and likely just pushed by a smaller group of fans and journalists online with no basis in reality.

By the time FF7RB releases, there will be roughly 60M PS5 consoles out there. Nothing will be holding it back and even install base excuses will sound sillier than they do already. We'll know by its launch sales just how well the reception to its marketing has been, as well as the reception to the original game. FFXVI launched to 3M which was the low end of SE's expectations. FF7R launched to 3.5M but, important to note, it did have a pandemic boost which was substantial for the industry at the time. Now that would indicate that FF7R likely would've launched to less than 3.5M without that, but we don't know how much of a difference that'd mean.

The question is how is the conversation surrounding FF7RB supposed to take form. This is the first time SE has made a mainline Final Fantasy game series with sequels built in mind from the beginning. The story itself is more traditional in that regard, so this isn't some tacked on sequel like FFX-2 or FFXII-2 etc. Traditionally you expect sequels to perform better if the original was received well, but how much do those past FF examples matter?

The one thing that may work for it is that Sony has no exclusives lined up after Spidey 2 and it's essentially a wasteland, so the hardcore Sony fans will definitely be paying more attention to other AAA exclusives. Similar to how I'd imagine FFXVI would've benefitted this year. I don't think that'll cancel out the pandemic conditions by any stretch of the imagination, but any little bit helps.

I think 3-4M is basically the range for FF7RB since SE is obviously treating it as a proper AAA mainline Final Fantasy. If 3M was low end expectations for FFXVI, I'd imagine whatever their expectations are for FF7RB will be similar. Maybe 3M on the lower end, and 4M on the higher end (4M is likely the minimum FFXV sold on PS4 at launch from the PS4/Xbox breakdowns we have). That range would still mean no growth for the franchise, but it'd mean no decline from where FF7R and FFXVI ended up at least, and 4M would at least maybe be a point in the right direction for the franchise for it's stagnation/decline since FFXV.

Less than 3M, and I'd say they should be very worried about FFXVII and FF7 Part 3.

The smart move to me though is pretty clear. Get the games released on Xbox/PC and Switch 2 if it's possible. Better late than never if only to start setting some form of expectations. You can then maybe counteract the decline/stagnation on Playstation by trying to get buyers on the other platforms. Xbox/PC should be good for 2-3M between them if FFXV is any indication (and that likely could've done more had it not been killed by SE in 2018). Switch 2 is the big question mark. There's bound to be some crossover between audiences there, but for all we know, they get 2-3M buyers on that one alone. The key is obviously going to be whether the platform can run the games.

They need to be thinking about how to best set up FFXVII for success when it decides to saunter along 6-8 years from now.
FFXVI didnt meet the low end expectations for Square Enix but in the mid end of expectations.

High end expectations it was 4M and low expectations probably something like 2M or 2.5M

FFXVI demo made a lot of people that never played FF games in getting the game, i saw it happening on YouTube with content creators, or people in forums like Resetera or Neogaf, Twitter and many others places.

The problem is that probably a lot of the core audience didnt want to get it, be it because they didnt like what they saw or because they dont have a PS5 yet.

The Sales drop in Japan hurt too, if it was close to FFVIIR numbers in Japan it would probably open closer to FFVIIR numbers
 
FFXVI didnt meet the low end expectations for Square Enix but in the mid end of expectations.

High end expectations it was 4M and low expectations probably something like 2M or 2.5M

FFXVI demo made a lot of people that never played FF games in getting the game, i saw it happening on YouTube with content creators, or people in forums like Resetera or Neogaf, Twitter and many others places.

The problem is that probably a lot of the core audience didnt want to get it, be it because they didnt like what they saw or because they dont have a PS5 yet.

The Sales drop in Japan hurt too, if it was close to FFVIIR numbers in Japan it would probably open closer to FFVIIR numbers
Forums and youtubers aren't the best place to gouge interest, imo.
 
The Sales drop in Japan hurt too, if it was close to FFVIIR numbers in Japan it would probably open closer to FFVIIR numbers
You are right. The sales drop in Japan covers almost the entirety of the discrepancy - since it opened at 336k in Japan vs FF7R's 702k.

However, we basically know it was overshipped compared to 7R. Why? Because in every major market we have comparisons for, it sold worse. It had a big drop in the U.K., a big drop in Japan, a 27% drop in Spain, and a drop in the U.S., and probably a pretty notable one given Matt Piscatella was fairly defensive about the game.

This is in comparison to 7R which not only got its figure quicker but also was sold out in Japan and iirc some parts of the U.S.

So while it's true shipments would be similar, the actual selling power is quite a bit different. This is important not to discredit shipment figures, but because it makes further shipment records harder to achieve, since it takes longer for further shipments to be necessary.
 
FFXVI didnt meet the low end expectations for Square Enix but in the mid end of expectations.

High end expectations it was 4M and low expectations probably something like 2M or 2.5M

FFXVI demo made a lot of people that never played FF games in getting the game, i saw it happening on YouTube with content creators, or people in forums like Resetera or Neogaf, Twitter and many others places.

The problem is that probably a lot of the core audience didnt want to get it, be it because they didnt like what they saw or because they dont have a PS5 yet.

The Sales drop in Japan hurt too, if it was close to FFVIIR numbers in Japan it would probably open closer to FFVIIR numbers
They didn't say anything about mid end of expectations. That's your own insertion. They said it did not meet the high end of their expectations. If it was significant enough to comment on in the call, it'd likely be at the lower end of expectations. Not "mid-end". And low end of expectations would not be 2M or 2.5M. That'd be a ridiculous disaster. You're talking a 50% drop from FFXV on PS4 at that point. No way would SE have such a boneheaded expectation in the first place where they have a range of 2 million or whatever. That'd basically mean they were expecting the game to be a near flop by FF standards and none of the producer commentary for FFXVI indicates anything of the sort. They went into this looking to grow their base. You might as well just say their expectations were nothing if you're going to make that kind of speculative commentary.

The demo didn't do anything. Comments online mean nothing. The data is what speaks. We know that from the sales figures. How on earth would the demo have helped if the game literally sold in the range of SE's expectations? They don't set those expectations 2 weeks out.

And the sales figures could be close to FFVIIR in Japan, and it still wouldn't be close overall. They clearly over shipped it with how it performed relative to FF7R everywhere. It's had terrible legs even by FF standards.
 
They didn't say anything about mid end of expectations. That's your own insertion. They said it did not meet the high end of their expectations. If it was significant enough to comment on in the call, it'd likely be at the lower end of expectations. Not "mid-end". And low end of expectations would not be 2M or 2.5M. That'd be a ridiculous disaster. You're talking a 50% drop from FFXV on PS4 at that point. No way would SE have such a boneheaded expectation in the first place where they have a range of 2 million or whatever. That'd basically mean they were expecting the game to be a near flop by FF standards and none of the producer commentary for FFXVI indicates anything of the sort. They went into this looking to grow their base. You might as well just say their expectations were nothing if you're going to make that kind of speculative commentary.

The demo didn't do anything. Comments online mean nothing. The data is what speaks. We know that from the sales figures. How on earth would the demo have helped if the game literally sold in the range of SE's expectations? They don't set those expectations 2 weeks out.

And the sales figures could be close to FFVIIR in Japan, and it still wouldn't be close overall. They clearly over shipped it with how it performed relative to FF7R everywhere. It's had terrible legs even by FF standards.
i dont see FFXVI having worse legs that FFVIIR, that game disappeared from the NPD charts and PSN Digital Charts after the second month, FFXVI its still there on the third month.

Japan its the only place where FFVIIR have better legs because even in the UK charts FFVIIR didnt keep up in the ranking after a month or two

Im talking about what i saw, several people commenting that after trying the demo, they bought the game.

Its clear that a big part of the FF core audience (be it the newer fans that FFXV and FFVIIR brought) or older FF fans didnt want to get FFXVI.

That happens all the time, outside of Japan both FFIX and FFXII sold much less that a game not well received like FFXII or even FFX-2
 
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i dont see FFXVI having worse legs that FFVIIR, that game disappeared from the NPD charts and PSN Digital Charts after the second month, FFXVI its still there on the third month.

Japan its the only place where FFVIIR have better legs because even in the UK charts FFVIIR didnt keep up in the ranking after a month or two

Im talking about what i saw, several people commenting that after trying the demo, they bought the game.

Its clear that a big part of the FF core audience (be it the newer fans that FFXV and FFVIIR brought) or older FF fans didnt want to get FFXVI.

That happens all the time, outside of Japan both FFIX and FFXII sold much less that a game not well received like FFXII or even FFX-2
For NPD charts, FFXVI looks like it will end up lower than FF7R. FFXVI is currently 10 on the Circana Year to Date, which is where FF7R ended up. And we have yet to get Starfield, EA FC, NBA, Spider-Man, Mario Wonder and Call of Duty. Assassin's Creed and Street Fighter legs have the potential to push it down further. While a part would be that the top part of the chart in 2023 is more robust than 2020, dropping 7+ positions isn't going to be explained by that
 
I don't think that the last SOP had a particularly high viewership. The one with Hogwards Legacy was high and I think Playstation Showcase had impressive numbers. Not to mention - who decided to start with Baby Steps???


The rule of thumb is that online discourse is rarely reflects the real world - a lot of online talks are still about JRPGs being system sellers so...No matter what forum, it always have that japan skewed discourse (probably due to people growing up with PS1 and PS2). It is always hilarious to see people hyping up some niche JRPG and then claim that nobody plays COD or Roblox.


Well it did not help that FF16 was not available on PC...And PC has a quite healthy FF14 community (don't know if it was bigger than PS or not though). By and large, I think that people who were planning to buy FF games, did buy it. But that's it. This specific FF game just did not translate to a bigger market.


I find it funny how people are constantly trying to disparage Xbox in regards of JRPGs. If you don't release games on of that specific genre on Xbox, you can't grow the community who play those games. Square Enix's result of selling PS consoles more (does FF even sell consoles at this point?) than to sell their games has finally caught up with them. There is a reason why other publishers are stopped doing time exclusive deals like Square Enix. Even if we exclude Xbox, not a single publisher locks their ips from PC because it is obvious for everybody that PC is an enormous platform.


I think FF7R will do better than FF16, but less than FF7R P1. The main problem with FF IP is - due to Square Enix releases - it basically being sold to people, who would have bought the game anyway.
The thing is we have some facts we can go from; The reason why many Japanese studios and those making JRPGs stopped putting games on Xbox is because the terrible sales of their games on Xbox made it economically more feasible to sign exclusive deals with Sony anyway. As long as the Xbox ecosystem have so unfavourable views of JRPGs it doesn't really make much sense to focus on that ecosystem. Xbox being so heavily US focused and inspired makes it a terrible place for the JRPG genre which is unlikely to change in the future. Sure maybe they put it out on Xbox and take the few thousands sales there as a win anyway, but the audience isn't there at all. Xbox have their own RPGs that make more sense on that ecosystem like the games Bethesda are making, putting Dragon quest and Final Fantasy there will not make any numbers to speak of. If even JRPG games on the PS5 is struggling to gain the same traction as before with that ecosystem being much more favorable of JRPG games imagine the terrible sales on an Xbox, much less than they get from Sony previously, though Sony is unlikely to sign the deals they used to do with Square Enix due to their gradual declining sales makes it less profitable to sign exslusives with them anymore, leading Square Enix to want all the breadcrumb sales they can get from Xbox owners.
 
For NPD charts, FFXVI looks like it will end up lower than FF7R. FFXVI is currently 10 on the Circana Year to Date, which is where FF7R ended up. And we have yet to get Starfield, EA FC, NBA, Spider-Man, Mario Wonder and Call of Duty. Assassin's Creed and Street Fighter legs have the potential to push it down further. While a part would be that the top part of the chart in 2023 is more robust than 2020, dropping 7+ positions isn't going to be explained by that

I get what you mean, but I think the year kind of explains it really. It's not just the top of the chart that is robust, and like you say, it'll get even better as new big title arrive later this year.

8th: Mario Kart 8: Deluxe*
9th: Super Mario 3D All-Stars
Then you look at the position right behind FF7R. It's Marvel's Avengers, a major net loss for SE, straight Bomba territory. You've got more Digital not Included games below that and things like Kakarot at 17, who would sell 4.5M by December 2021, almost two full years after release.

Mario Kart 8, the eternal Evergreen, was also 10th in 2019 is not even going to make the top 20 this year.


Again, 2023 is just that kind of year. If you're not a BIG seller, you're gone.
 
I get what you mean, but I think the year kind of explains it really. It's not just the top of the chart that is robust, and like you say, it'll get even better as new big title arrive later this year.

8th: Mario Kart 8: Deluxe*
9th: Super Mario 3D All-Stars
Then you look at the position right behind FF7R. It's Marvel's Avengers, a major net loss for SE, straight Bomba territory. You've got more Digital not Included games below that and things like Kakarot at 17, who would sell 4.5M by December 2021, almost two full years after release.

Mario Kart 8, the eternal Evergreen, was also 10th in 2019 is not even going to make the top 20 this year.


Again, 2023 is just that kind of year. If you're not a BIG seller, you're gone.
Mario Kart 8 was significantly bigger in 2020 than in 2023. It had 8.64 sell in for April through December in 2020. In 2022, it had only 6.3M. If we compare Q1 results, while 2023 is higher than 2022 at 1.67 (1.48 in 2022), they are far below 2020 which was 1.97. Super Mario 3D All-Stars also shipped 8.32 million that year. Physical alone would have them above FF7 Remake that year globally. Marvel's Avengers is also the second best selling superhero game at launch, only behind PS4 Spider-Man. It's not like we're talking about games that are below Dead Island 2/FFXVI tier. It's not that much worse than 2023.
 
The demo didn't do anything. Comments online mean nothing. The data is what speaks. We know that from the sales figures. How on earth would the demo have helped if the game literally sold in the range of SE's expectations? They don't set those expectations 2 weeks out.
I believe the sales for FFXVI would have been demonstrably worse without the demo. Although somewhat anecdotal, the hype for the game was practically nonexistent before the demo was released.
 
I believe the sales for FFXVI would have been demonstrably worse without the demo. Although somewhat anecdotal, the hype for the game was practically nonexistent before the demo was released.
Yeah the demo probably saved that game from being a Forspoken bomb, the game had like no hype at all before the demo, everyone compared the hype of FF16 compared to FF7 rebirth and asked why the hype was so much bigger for FF7 rebirth, so if anything as you said the demo helped narrow the huge gape that existed before the demo with FF16 compared to FF7 rebirth. For real evidence we can see that preorders were cathastropically low for FF16 before the release of the demo, which collaborates the notion that FF16 was lacking in hype.
 
I believe the sales for FFXVI would have been demonstrably worse without the demo. Although somewhat anecdotal, the hype for the game was practically nonexistent before the demo was released.
Again, this means nothing. This is just anecdotal and people parroting each other in a circular way to build this narrative. SE isn't setting expectations for FFXVI two weeks before its release. They will have a game plan, like any company, long before the game's release and they'll be tracking metrics over a long period of time leading to release. They had their expectations, and FFXVI came in at the lower end of them.

So once again, how on earth did the demo make a difference if it performed in line with SE's expectations, albeit at the lower end of them?

I don't want to know what people on social media are saying, nor do I care what one or two random journalists parroted online without any real evidence. How does the data we now know and the company's own projections support this statement? They don't.
 
Again, this means nothing. This is just anecdotal and people parroting each other in a circular way to build this narrative. SE isn't setting expectations for FFXVI two weeks before its release. They will have a game plan, like any company, long before the game's release and they'll be tracking metrics over a long period of time leading to release. They had their expectations, and FFXVI came in at the lower end of them.

So once again, how on earth did the demo make a difference if it performed in line with SE's expectations, albeit at the lower end of them?

I don't want to know what people on social media are saying, nor do I care what one or two random journalists parroted online without any real evidence. How does the data we now know and the company's own projections support this statement? They don't.
If you look at the preorders of FF16 they were really catastrophically low before the release of the demo, really far behind other FF preorder figures. The demo led to the preorders hitting up a fair bit. So its fair to assume that the modest release of FF16 would have been even worse without the demo. The game would likely have been an outright bomb due to complete lack of interest even close to release like FF16 was at the time.
 
Again, this means nothing. This is just anecdotal and people parroting each other in a circular way to build this narrative. SE isn't setting expectations for FFXVI two weeks before its release. They will have a game plan, like any company, long before the game's release and they'll be tracking metrics over a long period of time leading to release. They had their expectations, and FFXVI came in at the lower end of them.

So once again, how on earth did the demo make a difference if it performed in line with SE's expectations, albeit at the lower end of them?

I don't want to know what people on social media are saying, nor do I care what one or two random journalists parroted online without any real evidence. How does the data we now know and the company's own projections support this statement? They don't.
I believe there were tweets by an industry analyst before the demo released that stated that preorders were very low. I just can't remember who it was. As you stated earlier, all SE said was that the sales weren't at the high end of their expectations. I honestly think the game would have struggled to meet the low end of their expectations without the demo. Once the demo released, the game shot up the charts on Amazon. It's clear why that happened. The demo was viewed much more positively than any other marketing materials SE had released to that point.
 
If you look at the preorders of FF16 they were really catastrophically low before the release of the demo, really far behind other FF preorder figures. The demo led to the preorders hitting up a fair bit. So its fair to assume that the modest release of FF16 would have been even worse without the demo. The game would likely have been an outright bomb due to complete lack of interest even close to release like FF16 was at the time.
Catastrophically low? So you know what the pre-order numbers were? Can you share those with us? As well as the pre-order numbers for FFXV and FFVIIR so we can make a comparison?

I believe there were tweets by an industry analyst before the demo released that stated that preorders were very low. I just can't remember who it was. As you stated earlier, all SE said was that the sales weren't at the high end of their expectations. I honestly think the game would have struggled to meet the low end of their expectations without the demo. Once the demo released, the game shot up the charts on Amazon. It's clear why that happened. The demo was viewed much more positively than any other marketing materials SE had released to that point.
There was no industry analyst. It was a tweet or post from a journalist (ex-journalist?) who said SE were slightly concerned about pre-orders for FFXVI. That's it.
 
Thanks for the correction. However, that doesn't dispute the fact that the game did much better on Amazon charts once the demo released.
It also doesn't change the demo did not have any impact worth mentioning. Doing better on Amazon charts doesn't mean a whole lot unless you actually have numbers. What we do know from SE themselves however is that game fell within their range of expectations, and that is set long before the demo was ever a thing.
 
It also doesn't change the demo did not have any impact worth mentioning. Doing better on Amazon charts doesn't mean a whole lot unless you actually have numbers. What we do know from SE themselves however is that game fell within their range of expectations, and that is set long before the demo was ever a thing.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. There's no way to have specific quantitative data to back my argument up, but I think the improvement on Amazon is a pretty solid indicator.
 
It also doesn't change the demo did not have any impact worth mentioning. Doing better on Amazon charts doesn't mean a whole lot unless you actually have numbers. What we do know from SE themselves however is that game fell within their range of expectations, and that is set long before the demo was ever a thing.
Not sure what you mean because all demos are designed to increase engagement. You don't make a demo, especially a pre-release demo and not expect it to drive sales. The expectations are going to include increase from the demo though you can't be sure of the exact effects of it. The debatable part is the scale of the effect of the demo, not that the demo didn't have any impact.
While we can't be sure, the sales with high sell-through rate (though we only have Japanese numbers for this beyond anecdotes) indicate some sort of event after retailers placed their orders in drove sales higher than retailer expectation.
 
Well, at least in terms of Comgnet! preorders the demo did have a positive impact for the game in Japan
 
FFXIII sold 6.6M in less than 3 years (around 2 years and 10 months if I recall). It also launched stronger than FFVIIR. This was an entry that also clearly had terrible word of mouth pretty much immediately. That was across 2 platforms. FFVIIR is on 3 platforms, got a covid boost which helped the entire industry at launch, and has just managed 7M after almost 4 years. The market is also much bigger now.

By no stretch of the imagination is VIIR's performance more impressive than XIII's, especially over a decade later with the market the way it is now. Even XV was basically killed by SE themselves due to the funeral stream or it likely would've sold a few million beyond 10M. They're now giving away FFVIIR with pre-orders of the new game. Pretty much tells you its sales from this point forward are basically bullshit since they will pad the numbers this way.

I'd bet in future, we'll hear what the FF7R series has sold rather than what Rebirth has sold. That way they'll be able to distort the numbers. Like the extra 1.5M or whatever copies that'll be given away with Rebirth pre-orders soon.
This is all just conjecture though. There is no way to quantify exactly how much VIIR going PS+ impacted sales but we know objectively that there was an impact of some level. If I was only casually interested in VIIR or was waiting for a discount and caught wind of it being absolutely free I would just play it that way without a second thought. That's probably the mindset for a lot of people when it comes to Sea of Stars.
 
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