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Acquisitions in the Gaming Industry - Discussion, Evaluation and Predictions

MegaXZero

Member
From what I can find SE's revenue is close to 80% from gaming (Digital Entertainment). What I didn't realize was over 60% of their total revenue also came from Japan.

Sector shares
76.6% Digital Entertainment
12.0% Amusement
07.9% Publishing
03.5% Licensing, other

Region shares
61.6% Japan
22.2% North America
11.0% Europe
05.2% Asia, other
And that's why dumping Japan makes no sense, you are gutting the damn company to do so.
 
EA's net revenue and bookings in FY2022 were up 24% and 21% YoY respectively. They're doing quite well.
They are doing fine financially the issues are really with their software output. They are struggling, outside of Vince Zampella, to put out key software in a timely manner—even at times quality software. Between losing the FIFA license, BF being a bit of a disaster, & struggle to get games like DA out. I would say EA is currently struggling in the market to a degree.
 

MegaXZero

Member
They are doing fine financially the issues are really with their software output. They are struggling, outside of Vince Zampella, to put out key software in a timely manner—even at times quality software. Between losing the FIFA license, BF being a bit of a disaster, & struggle to get games like DA out. I would say EA is currently struggling in the market to a degree.
It's more like they are betting that with the players, EA soccer doesn't need the FIFA brand name on the tin to succeed. And they will probably be right.
 
It's more like they are betting that with the players, EA soccer doesn't need the FIFA brand name on the tin to succeed. And they will probably be right.
They probably will as I don’t see FIFA being able to draw them away but it’s not always certain so I threw it in since it is a loss no matter how you slice it.
 

fiendcode

Member
Other large Japanese pubs for comparison:

Capcom Sector
79.5% Digital Contents
11.1% Amusement Facility
05.2% Amusement Machine
04.0% Other

Capcom Region
45.0% Japan
25.1% North America
17.1% Asia, other
12.8% Europe


Bandai Namco Sector
42.0% Digital
40.1% Toy & Hobby
09.1% Amusement
04.9% Video & Music
02.6% Licensing
00.7% Other

Bandai Namco Region
57.9% Japan
17.8% Americas
12.7% Asia
11.6% Europe


Konami Sector
71.6% Digital Entertainment
16.9% Sports
08.6% Gaming & Systems (casinos)
06.0% Amusement

Konami Region
76.7% Japan
14.8% United States
04.3% Europe
04.3% Asia & other


Koei Tecmo Sector
94.4% Entertainment
03.8% Amusement Facilities
01.5% Real Estate
00.3% Other

Koei Tecmo Region
51.2% Japan
39.1% Asia
12.5% North America
04.3% Europe


Sega Sammy Sector
73.5% Contents Entertainment
23.6% Gaming Machine
02.7% Resort
00.1% Reconcile

Sega Sammy Region
67.1% Japan
23.5% United States
04.8% Europe
04.7% Other


Nintendo Sector
94.5% Game Machine - Switch
03.1% Smart Devices
02.2% Game Machine - other
00.2% Other

Nintendo Region
37.3% United States
25.0% Europe
21.2% Japan
10.4% Other
06.1% Americas
 

awng782

Member
Other large Japanese pubs for comparison:

Capcom Sector
79.5% Digital Contents
11.1% Amusement Facility
05.2% Amusement Machine
04.0% Other

Capcom Region
45.0% Japan
25.1% North America
17.1% Asia, other
12.8% Europe


Bandai Namco Sector
42.0% Digital
40.1% Toy & Hobby
09.1% Amusement
04.9% Video & Music
02.6% Licensing
00.7% Other

Bandai Namco Region
57.9% Japan
17.8% Americas
12.7% Asia
11.6% Europe


Konami Sector
71.6% Digital Entertainment
16.9% Sports
08.6% Gaming & Systems (casinos)
06.0% Amusement

Konami Region
76.7% Japan
14.8% United States
04.3% Europe
04.3% Asia & other


Koei Tecmo Sector
94.4% Entertainment
03.8% Amusement Facilities
01.5% Real Estate
00.3% Other

Koei Tecmo Region
51.2% Japan
39.1% Asia
12.5% North America
04.3% Europe


Sega Sammy Sector
73.5% Contents Entertainment
23.6% Gaming Machine
02.7% Resort
00.1% Reconcile

Sega Sammy Region
67.1% Japan
23.5% United States
04.8% Europe
04.7% Other


Nintendo Sector
94.5% Game Machine - Switch
03.1% Smart Devices
02.2% Game Machine - other
00.2% Other

Nintendo Region
37.3% United States
25.0% Europe
21.2% Japan
10.4% Other
06.1% Americas
Damn, I had no idea JP 3rd party publishers relied that heavily in the JP market.

Looks like the current strong dollar will mostly benefit Nintendo (and probably SIE) by far.
 
EA's net revenue and bookings in FY2022 were up 24% and 21% YoY respectively. They're doing quite well.

I think this is what they’re referring to (and what i was alluding to also)


That doesn’t necessarily mean they are struggling but I think a lot of publishers are noticing how quickly the industry is shifting and trying to adapt. I think thats why we’re seeing so much talk about multiplatform initiatives, NFT, more GAAS, more F2P…etc.

Platinum, Housemarque (before buyout), sega, Arkane, sony…these big single player devs are really looking for that big GAAS safety net it seems.

I’ve never really heard these big publishers openly talk about M&A before. Companies are getting bought out that no one ever thought would need to be bought out. No one could have predicted that Bungie would sell after gaining independence twice, Activision the biggest 3rd party publisher in the industry, Bethesda…etc

Who’s to really say who’s next? Seems like everyone is up for grabs. theres no real rationalizing what makes sense from the outside looking in.
 
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Terrell

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All this talk of Square Enix acquisition without acknowledging how Yuji Horii has the power to put a kibosh on such a deal is just... wow.

As @fiendcode handily illustrates, a huge volume of SQE revenue comes out of Japan, and I'll give you 1 guess to figure out which IP is the most responsible for that. I'll give y'all a hint: it's the one Square Enix isn't the sole rights holder to.
As I mentioned in the SQE business strategy thread when this came up last time, any acquisition of SQE has 3 major roadblocks:
  1. They need to get Yasuhiro Fukushima (founder of Enix and the largest single shareholder) on board for the deal to ever be possible
  2. They need to either:
    1. Get Armor Project, Bird Studio and the estate of Koichi Sugiyama unanimously on board or they'll lose Dragon Quest, which is responsible for potentially as much as 30% of SQE's entire market cap, thus any deal without them would involve drastically over-paying
    2. Get SQE to relinquish all trademarks and copyrights for Dragon Quest to the 3 mentioned parties prior to the deal and accept a much lower valuation
  3. They need every relevant division of Sony Group on board to readily absorb SQE's other business ventures, some of which Sony Group has never been in before (because Sony Group doesn't exist just to dump excess business ventures into that SIE doesn't want to or can't operate, y'know), lest they have to sell divisions at a loss (because any subsidiaries/divisions sold after an acquisition are sold at a loss since everyone recognizes it's the new parent company off-loading undesirable business ventures)
#1 could be achievable, but #2 & 3 are perhaps most important and are highly unlikely to be resolvable in a way that Sony would accept.

Even if we set aside DQ for a hot second, what is more likely to happen is that Sony would make an offer after internal deliberation on what SQE divisions they can absorb and make the proposal for sale only after SQE divests in the business areas Sony cannot or will not absorb (likely Taito and its amusement centre business, if we're being real, but quite possibly more). SQE just recently shed IP that may have been of interest to SIE with the sale of SQE Europe to Embracer Group, which prompted this discussion the last time. But if we are to see an acquisition, it's exceptionally likely you'd see even more shedding over at SQE to make them a far more acceptable acquisition target. But to do that, you'd need to find a way to do it that doesn't invoke the wrath of shareholders by keeping share price at the same level or higher while doing so.

And that's when we come back to DQ. Any relinquishing of IP rights or trying to adjust the company's valuation with the loss of DQ in mind would mean that any price per share outlined in an acquisition deal would likely be too low for a shareholder to accept. So in the end, you NEED Yuji Horii on board, or the whole thing falls apart.

If SIE is after Square Enix for Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts and their associated talent (which seems to be what everyone argues is most valuable to them), the far simpler solution instead of just buying Square Enix is getting Square Enix Holdings to put the staff in Creative Business Units I & III and Luminous Productions into a separate shell company along with the IP those teams primarily develop (FF, KH) with its own valuation and just sell that to SIE, while leaving Yuji Horii and the rest of their business ventures alone. It'd be cheaper and easier than any proposed alternative.
Damn, I had no idea JP 3rd party publishers relied that heavily in the JP market.

Looks like the current strong dollar will mostly benefit Nintendo (and probably SIE) by far.
Anyone who suggested otherwise was lying to you.
Now imagine how these numbers are based on the current configuration of the industry; Japan's percentage of revenue was probably a lot larger when 3rd-party publishers were releasing their biggest IP on hardware that Japanese people owned in huge numbers. So anyone saying that the West will save Japanese publishers has been fooling themselves; lower-budget games on market-leading hardware that sell large numbers of copies in Japan have been subsidizing AAA sales performance at home and overseas for the better part of a decade now.
 
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fiendcode

Member
Going a little deeper:

Marvelous Sector
60.2% Consumer
24.2% Online
15.6% Music & Video

Marvelous Region
72.0% Japan
17.6% North America
05.8% Asia
04.5% Europe
00.0% Other


Kadokawa Sector
59.5% Publishing
14.8% Video
09.6% Web Services
08.8% Game
07.4% Other

Kadokawa Region
86.9% Japan
07.2% North America
04.8% Asia
01.0% Other


CyberAgent Sector
45.3% Advertising
39.4% Games
11.4% Media
02.9% Other
01.0% Investment Training

CyberAgent Region
100% Japan


Gungho Sector
100% Online Games

Gungho Region
60.7% Japan
34.3% Asia
03.5% North America
01.4% Other


Colopl Sector
100% Mobile & Services

Colopl Region
100% Japan


MIXI Sector
77.2 Digital Entertainment
15.7 Sports
07.1 Lifestyle

MIXI Region
100% Japan


Imagineer Sector
100% Contents

Imagineer Region
81.2% Japan
10.4% Other
08.5% China


FuRyu Sector
44.6% Character Merchandising
24.4% Contents & Media
22.2% Printed Seal
08.8% Games

FuRyu Region
100% Japan


NIS Sector
99.0% Entertainment
01.0% Student Dormitories (lolwut)

NIS Region
56.7% North America
27.5% Japan
14.1% Europe
01.6% Asia


Falcom Sector
73.1% Licensing
26.9% Game Software

Falcom Region
57.1% Japan
27.2% North America, Europe
16.6% Asia


Cave Sector
79.9% Gaming
20.1% Streaming

Cave Region
100% Japan


Sony Sector
27.6% Game & Network Service
23.6% Elctronics, Products & Solutions
15.5% Financial Services
12.5% Pictures
11.3% Music
10.8% Imaging Products & Solutions
01.0% Other

Sony Region
27.9% North America
27.9% Japan
18.8% Europe
11.6% Asia Pacific
07.8% China
06.1% Other
 
Regarding Sony having to secure mainline Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts from Xbox, how much sway do those games have in the current market that it would tip a sizable number of people deciding between a PS5 and an Xbox Series?
I think the thought experiment would be more interesting in the opposite direction because the audience for both those series are already on PS. Looking at JP games sales on Xbox shows they have a long way to go.
 

QuadraticForm

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With the latest news about Ubisoft postponing many releases, including Avatar and the next AC, it seems Ubi is at a new low. Who do you think could be a likely buyer if they were to sell? With MS being under review for ATVI, it seems anytime in the following 12 months would be bad timing for them to bid for Ubi.
 
With the latest news about Ubisoft postponing many releases, including Avatar and the next AC, it seems Ubi is at a new low. Who do you think could be a likely buyer if they were to sell? With MS being under review for ATVI, it seems anytime in the following 12 months would be bad timing for them to bid for Ubi.

I don’t see a platform holder buying them. I wouldn’t be mad at another publisher buying them like EA or Take Two

There were rumors of other Private Equity firms looking to acquire them
 

QuadraticForm

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I don’t see a platform holder buying them. I wouldn’t be mad at another publisher buying them.
Another publisher you say? I don't see Sony buying them, but that's just what my guts tell me. With MS and Sony out of the map, I was thinking of Tencent or some other large conglomerate rather than, say, EA or Take Two.
 

Blue Monty

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With the latest news about Ubisoft postponing many releases, including Avatar and the next AC, it seems Ubi is at a new low. Who do you think could be a likely buyer if they were to sell? With MS being under review for ATVI, it seems anytime in the following 12 months would be bad timing for them to bid for Ubi.
All the rumors were around a trust fund buying Ubisoft not a platform holder or publisher. And to be fair dont think anyone in the gaming buisness wants Ubisoft
 

enpleinjour

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Stuff like Ace Attorney or TWEWY may not be exclusive but because Nintendo funds and promotes the smaller titles in a similar audience, the majority of the audience remains on Switch where those games sell best.

Similarly, Sony promotes big AAA JP games to ensure that their audience is maintained on Playstation where they sell best.

They only invest into a handful of big franchises that do well in the West or are live services; everything else for them is deemed unimportant. JP games are loved globally but you wouldn’t know it on PS unless your a bigger name.

I'm counting 6/7 (depending on how you consider FF7 and FF16) thus far and 9-10 depending on rumours/speculation. That's more than a handful and is a huge chunk from the JP AAA scene.

I'm not sure what you're replying to anymore. The question was simple? Does Sony care about JP software? Yes, they invest a lot into it. It may be different to what you desire but that doesn't change the former.

Also apparently Nintendo paid an enormous sum to Sega for MD on NSO, potentially a huge cut of the sub revenue. Nintendo's not shy about investment in Japan and it's not limited to basic ad spends to delay or block Xbox ports. They're essentially co-funding and co-publishing 3rd party games like Octopath, NMH3 or DXM, games that basically wouldn't exist at all if not for their involvement. And really these kinds of deals just vastly outnumber the competition (combined), nevermind even closer IP collabs (Pokken, Hyrule warriors, M&S Olympics, etc), licensed IP (Bayonetta, Tetris, Culdcept, etc) or straight up contract deals (Smash, Astral Chain, Fire Emblem, etc). Nintendo's spending in the Japanese development community, even outside their own gigantic internal R&D, absolutely dwarfs PlayStation and really anyone else.

I will agree to that. Nintendo utilizes third party devs in Japan on 1st party and 2nd party titles, building a dev ecosystem around their properties.
Sony on the other hand primarily focuses on high end AAA productions, like its 1st party, which are comparably rarer in JP development and more arbitrary on when Sony wants it.

And that's why dumping Japan makes no sense, you are gutting the damn company to do so.

Damn, I had no idea JP 3rd party publishers relied that heavily in the JP market.

Those revenue figures include mobile, something that would remain untouched in an acquisition, especially in cases like SE where their mobile division is a big success. That's an asset.

Regarding Sony having to secure mainline Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts from Xbox, how much sway do those games have in the current market that it would tip a sizable number of people deciding between a PS5 and an Xbox Series?

Huge among the more Japanese interested audience. FF is around 10M and KH is likely somewhere like 7M. Whats important is to note that audiences overlap. Fans of JP games are more likely to be buy into anime games, or JP games from other pubs, or JRPGS -> WRPGs pollination.

In terms of tipping. Not much since PS4 already had exclusives/timed exclusives like FF7, FF14, Nier, Persona, KH 2.8, SFV. I would think something would need to be contrary from prior to move market biases. This is just more of the status quo.
 
I'm counting 6/7 (depending on how you consider FF7 and FF16) thus far and 9-10 depending on rumours/speculation. That's more than a handful and is a huge chunk from the JP AAA scene.


I'm not sure what you're replying to anymore. The question was simple? Does Sony care about JP software? Yes, they invest a lot into it. It may be different to what you desire but that doesn't change the former.
First leave my wants out of this. Second if the question were simple then you wouldn’t be getting so many replies arguing why they don’t

Does Sony care about JP software?
Yes, but only for a handful of franchises that align either as AAA or live service targeting mainly the West. Everything else does not matter to Sony both abroad or domestically. Their investments, if you can call some of them that, are negligible to the wider scope of development in JP. The market is currently experiencing a renaissance due to the efforts of Nintendo investing in studios & providing a stable platform for software to sell. SE is currently enjoying such due to major investment by Nintendo. Like imagine a market with a weaker Nintendo & this Sony. This isn’t a difficult to grasp concept unless you make it so.
 
Huge among the more Japanese interested audience. FF is around 10M and KH is likely somewhere like 7M. Whats important is to note that audiences overlap. Fans of JP games are more likely to be buy into anime games, or JP games from other pubs, or JRPGS -> WRPGs pollination.

In terms of tipping. Not much since PS4 already had exclusives/timed exclusives like FF7, FF14, Nier, Persona, KH 2.8, SFV. I would think something would need to be contrary from prior to move market biases. This is just more of the status quo.
I kinda figured.

If Sony's position as the place for AAA JRPGs is unassailable, what would be the reason to lock up Square Enix under its ownership, as some has suggested? The timed exclusives are just as strong as true exclusivity due to FOMO and how really late ports barely get attention, especially if there is a new FF game after the old ones are free to port.

So there isn't really any value of having to buy all of Square Enix to ensure exclusive titles in perpetuity. Microsoft and Xbox just doesn't have the mindshare yet to threaten Sony on this.
 
I kinda figured.

If Sony's position as the place for AAA JRPGs is unassailable, what would be the reason to lock up Square Enix under its ownership, as some has suggested? The timed exclusives are just as strong as true exclusivity due to FOMO and how really late ports barely get attention, especially if there is a new FF game after the old ones are free to port.

So there isn't really any value of having to buy all of Square Enix to ensure exclusive titles in perpetuity. Microsoft and Xbox just doesn't have the mindshare yet to threaten Sony on this.

The back catalogue alone would probably be pretty valuable to have. It’s why playstation premium is going to continue to be lacking cause all the biggest PSX games are from third parties like Square Enix.
 

awng782

Member
I think this is what they’re referring to (and what i was alluding to also)


That doesn’t necessarily mean they are struggling but I think a lot of publishers are noticing how quickly the industry is shifting and trying to adapt. I think thats why we’re seeing so much talk about multiplatform initiatives, NFT, more GAAS, more F2P…etc.

Platinum, Housemarque (before buyout), sega, Arkane, sony…these big single player devs are really looking for that big GAAS safety net it seems.

I’ve never really heard these big publishers openly talk about M&A before. Companies are getting bought out that no one ever thought would need to be bought out. No one could have predicted that Bungie would sell after gaining independence twice, Activision the biggest 3rd party publisher in the industry, Bethesda…etc

Who’s to really say who’s next? Seems like everyone is up for grabs. theres no real rationalizing what makes sense from the outside looking in.
Oh, I'm not saying EA cant get aquired by or merged with another company - in fact, I be shocked if EA wasn't part of a M&A within the next 5 years or so. I'm just saying that they as a company are doing quite well financially, even if certain EA franchises or studios (Battlefield/DICE, Bioware, etc) are struggling.
 
Oh, I'm not saying EA cant get aquired by or merged with another company - in fact, I be shocked if EA wasn't part of a M&A within the next 5 years or so. I'm just saying that they as a company are doing quite well financially, even if certain EA franchises or studios (Battlefield/DICE, Bioware, etc) are struggling.

I’m of the belief that a lot of these companies are a bomb or two away from collapse. Square Enix had a pretty huge bomb with Avengers and some ‘underperforming’ western titles, next think you know the division is being sold off for peanuts.

EA had two major back to back bombs with Anthem and Mass Effect Andromeda, I'm sure theres been a ton more underperforming stuff mixed in as well. These studios that are license heavy cant afford to not put out successful games. Who knows what would have happened if Fallen Order had failed.

I’m still waiting for BIG tech to make a move.
 

Leica

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I’m of the belief that a lot of these companies are a bomb or two away from collapse. Square Enix had a pretty huge bomb with Avengers and some ‘underperforming’ western titles, next think you know the division is being sold off for peanuts.

EA had two major back to back bombs with Anthem and Mass Effect Andromeda, I'm sure theres been a ton more underperforming stuff mixed in as well. These studios that are license heavy cant afford to not put out successful games. Who knows what would have happened if Fallen Order had failed.

I’m still waiting for BIG tech to make a move.
Doesn't work that way. If Jedi Fallen Order had failed it would have not gotten a sequel and it'd have really sucked for the people working on it knowing EA but that's about it.
 
Doesn't work that way. If Jedi Fallen Order had failed it would have not gotten a sequel and it'd have really sucked for the people working on it knowing EA but that's about it.

I’ve seen studios shuttered or made into support studios after the failure of a big game. I’m not saying the publisher would be in deep water specifically but EA is notorious for killing off studios.

Sony's not blowing $5-10B for some PS1 games.

It wouldn’t be just for the back catalogue. It would just be a major piece of the pie. Now i don’t think SIE is buying SE but its easy to see why people think its a popular pick up for them, from the dozen of IP, to back catalogue, Major Online service game, Anime and CG, long relationship, etc…
 

fiendcode

Member
It wouldn’t be just for the back catalogue. It would just be a major piece of the pie. Now i don’t think SIE is buying SE but its easy to see why people think its a popular pick up for them, from the dozen of IP, to back catalogue, Major Online service game, Anime and CG, long relationship, etc…
The problem though, again, is their heavy JP market focus. Now some of that's admittedly in sectors SIE doesn't care about (Mobile, Amusement, Publishing, Licensing, etc) but that in itself sort of presents an equally large issue. I mean if Sony would basically need to split the company and throw half of it to Aniplex anyway, maybe Aniplex would be the better home for everything? That way Dragon Quest and lower tier AA stuff (SaGa, Mana, Asano, etc) wouldn't have to suffer the sales collapse it'd inevitably see going PS console exclusive.
 
The problem though, again, is their heavy JP market focus. Now some of that's admittedly in sectors SIE doesn't care about (Mobile, Amusement, Publishing, Licensing, etc) but that in itself sort of presents an equally large issue. I mean if Sony would basically need to split the company and throw half of it to Aniplex anyway, maybe Aniplex would be the better home for everything? That way Dragon Quest and lower tier AA stuff (SaGa, Mana, Asano, etc) wouldn't have to suffer the sales collapse it'd inevitably see going PS console exclusive.

There would certainly need to be some restructuring but Sony proper is still a Japanese company like you said, Aniplex and a few other subsidiaries are still Japan focused.
 


He continues: "If I read between the lines, Square Enix Japan was not as committed as we hoped initially. And there are rumours, obviously, that with all these activities of mergers and acquisitions, that Sony would really like to have Square Enix within their wheelhouse. I heard rumours that Sony said they're really interested in Square Enix Tokyo, but not the rest. So, I think [Square Enix CEO Yosuke] Matsuda-san put it like a garage sale."
 

MegaXZero

Member

That’s literally the rumor the usual insiders pedaled to try explain why SE west got sold so cheap.

The obvious answer was the failure of the studies, especially with marvel games, meant no one wanted to buy them. SE obviously wanted to get rid of them for the same reason.
 

enpleinjour

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I kinda figured.

If Sony's position as the place for AAA JRPGs is unassailable, what would be the reason to lock up Square Enix under its ownership, as some has suggested? The timed exclusives are just as strong as true exclusivity due to FOMO and how really late ports barely get attention, especially if there is a new FF game after the old ones are free to port.

So there isn't really any value of having to buy all of Square Enix to ensure exclusive titles in perpetuity. Microsoft and Xbox just doesn't have the mindshare yet to threaten Sony on this.

Having ownership means permanent exclusivity. They get exclusives like FF, KH, DQ, Nier, and a dozen or so smaller AA titles. Owning SE would give them a plurality chunk of the entire JRPG genre, hugely benefiting software lineups in Japan and abroad.

FF14 is also a money printer and top 10/5 GaaS in the world. People do not realise but FF14 could be making $500M a year, that's in the same ballpark as GTA Online.

IPs in both gaming and anime that could further bolster Sony's mulitmedia push from movies, TV series, anime and CGI.

It also cannot be stated how cheap SE is right now. $3B revenue, future projections of $4B+, $1B net income and at a possible price of $7B. Sony spent around 10x on Bungie than their revenue (0.3B -> 3B+). The equivalent would be $30B for SE...

I’m still waiting for BIG tech to make a move.

They did. Google has Stadia, Amazon has Luna and a smaller 1st party and Apple has Arcade. The big Tech boogeyman continues to be a boogeyman.

Apple makes so much money I can't seem them trying to make a console as any priority. At most they might want to make Mac a better place to game but their exclusive APIs and ARM chipset make it near impossible to shift an entire industry to make native Mac ports.

Google has borderline left Stadia on its last legs. It only wants to be a platform and not have any 1st party exposure. Amazon is perhaps the only one, but I don;t see regulators being okay with how pervasive Amazon has been with buying huge competitors in new industries and then undercutting everyone. FTC/EU have a lot of smoke on suing Amazon.

Facebook are a VR only gaming company. No AAA publisher suits that.



More smoke.
 

Blue Monty

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I don't think DQ would be exclusive if this happened, the franchise losses almost all of its value without a Nintendo port.
Would Nintendo care to market and promote DQ like they have been doing if it was under SIE? Under Aniplex there would be no issues, Nintendo has always made buisness with other Sony branches and will keep doing it, but under SIE the situation could be different.
 

MegaXZero

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I don't think DQ would be exclusive if this happened, the franchise losses almost all of its value without a Nintendo port.
That's the thing, their smaller AA library would just die under SIE. They aren't going to publish Saga, Mana, HD2D games.
More smoke.
A guy who hasn't been with a SE subsidiary for 10 years reading the same rumors everyone else does online is smoke? Lol okay.
 

enpleinjour

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A guy who hasn't been with a SE subsidiary for 10 years reading the same rumors everyone else does online is smoke? Lol okay.

How do you know his source is the "same rumours everyone else does online"?
Said guy has a network of colleagues that everyone else online does not.
 

MegaXZero

Member
How do you know his source is the "same rumours everyone else does online"?
Said guy has a network of colleagues that everyone else online does not.
A network that didn’t tell him the subsidiary he was the founder of was being sold for $300million, but told him SE is being sold to Sony?

Again, these are public companies. Acquisitions are tight lipped until they go through. Leaking it out far in advance has major legal implications.
 

enpleinjour

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A network that didn’t tell him the subsidiary he was the founder of was being sold for $300million, but told him SE is being sold to Sony?

Again, these are public companies. Acquisitions are tight lipped until they go through. Leaking it out far in advance has major legal implications.

You still haven't shown me how he's "reading the same rumours as everyone else"?

It's conversation, not like he's the CEO getting daily reports. Just because one hears/brings ups X does not guarantee one hears/brings up Y.

He's not an insider and is presumably not leaking inside information. Hearsay and speculation.

Point is you do not know his source to claim its from "online rumours", no one does.
 

MegaXZero

Member
You still haven't shown me how he's "reading the same rumours as everyone else"?

It's conversation, not like he's the CEO getting daily reports. Just because one hears/brings ups X does not guarantee one hears/brings up Y.

He's not an insider and is presumably not leaking inside information. Hearsay and speculation.

Point is you do not know his source to claim its from "online rumours", no one does.
Because it is the exact same rumor that got brought up when SE west got sold, as part of some slimming down or whatever.

So lets review: he hasn't worked for SE for a decade, his network didn't even know about the sale of his own former company, actual acquisitions involving public companies are incredibly hush hush due to legalities, and finally it's the exact same as the online rumor as before.
 

Fiendslayer

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Lol. What if I tell you I am a SE Buisness analyst and I tell you straight up SE has no interest in being accquired?

This guy, who left the company for half a decade, only know if the sale of Eidos/CD by SE in the morning it happened, and somehow he has insight into going ons way above his level even when he was at the studio (he straight up said London and Tokyo were non communicative)?

He also specifically called it a rumor....

I personally think that SIE buying SE would be a weird move. It's not totally impossible but it wouldn't make much sense. The only way this makes sense is "list wars".


The IP argument never made sense since Sony isn't interested in small IPs that can't sell 10 mil or be GaaS. It's the same reason why Eidos/CD was not an attractive accquisition.
 
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Fiendslayer

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Sure but I'd take the ruminations of a studio head has a better pulse on what people are thinking. Wouldn't take it as gospel but it's probably more accurate than most other stuff we'd hear.

Sure, but his experience working under SE would preclude him knowing much about what SE thinks. Dude couldn't even get guidance from his regional HQ about the direction of the studio he was running, much less have insight about what Tokyo wants/thinks/is planning. Especially when he describes SE wanting "SE Tokyo" (what about Osaka then?)

Then there is the issue of him being away from the Studio for 8(!) years and only knowing the sale of his ex-studio the same time as the cannon fodder grunts (aka the people how only know things after they happen).

All these points to it being heavily speculation than true insight. Especially when he overates how Eidos/CD compare favourably to Gearbox in regards to the sale price, when all can see there is a big world of a difference in the relative sucess of the companies/IPs.

I suppose we will know if Sony really would make such a value-destroying move when it happens, but I can't see the motivations by some posters saying "it all makes business sense" to be anything than console listz warz (+their previous behavoirs). There will be real challenges to twist all of SE's myraid businesses to fit into Sony.

The superficial imagined "synergies" simply don't seem to make sense to me...
  • ..beyond ocking down KH and FF (maybe things like Nier?), which they already do, and
  • denying games to other platforms (which destroys value, we have ample proof many of SE's non-AAA tier projects don't even sell majority on PS).
  • There will also be questions of where to park SE's considerable mobile output (SIE? Aniplex?).
  • What of the significant cost to let go, or downsize, the existing SE game publishing and support structure across multiple major markets (since these will redundantly replicated once SE is owned by Sony). This also applies to Acti-MS, but I argue that Acti's publishing structure would argubly be retained for markets that MS is traditionally weak in (mostly anywhere outside the American continent).
  • Finally, the other buisnesses (publishing, arcades, mechandising) are useless to a SIE-focused purchase, so if Masuda wants to "slim down for Sony accquisition" he would also be looking to sell away those buisnesses which we didn't hear about (and which I think he wouldn't, because those buisnesses bring in significant revenue and profits, and will be value destroying if he did sell them at some fire price as compared to loss making western studios)
 
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Terrell

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I don't think DQ would be exclusive if this happened, the franchise losses almost all of its value without a Nintendo port.
Forget exclusivity, DQ probably wouldn't survive if this happened, since the strongest likelihood is that negotiations with Horii would not turn out great if they tried to retain the IP under SIE.
That's the thing, their smaller AA library would just die under SIE. They aren't going to publish Saga, Mana, HD2D games.
Basically, yeah.

All this talk is centred around FF and KH because that's all that the subset of gamers who think it can/should happen care about, or naively think that such other fare will be magically upgraded to AAA production instead of treated like so much chaff in the way of the wheat.
 

enpleinjour

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Basically, yeah.

All this talk is centred around FF and KH because that's all that the subset of gamers who think it can/should happen care about, or naively think that such other fare will be magically upgraded to AAA production instead of treated like so much chaff in the way of the wheat.

This is just false.
Playstation has backed internally and externally many AA/A projects:
  • Astrobot
  • Dreams
  • Concrete Genie
  • Nier Automata
  • Nioh
  • Babylon
  • Valkyrie Elysium
  • Indie projects: Bugsnax, Pathless, Kena, Sifu, Stray, Little Devil Inside
  • VR projects: Iron Man VR, Deracine
With the introduction of PS Extra and such, Sony wants and needs AA content.
 
Sony shutting down multi million selling games like Octopath with drastically lower time, money, and resources put into them than AAA games is unlikely imo, especially since those skill sets don't translate to AAA FF/KH production, so what else are you going to do with those teams.
 

Mendinso

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This is just false.
Playstation has backed internally and externally many AA/A projects:

  • Nier Automata

Hmm...







 

AruanaRiva

I will never doubt Harada-sama ever again!!!
Member
This is just false.
Playstation has backed internally and externally many AA/A projects:
  • Astrobot
  • Dreams
  • Concrete Genie
  • Nier Automata
  • Nioh
  • Babylon
  • Valkyrie Elysium
  • Indie projects: Bugsnax, Pathless, Kena, Sifu, Stray, Little Devil Inside
  • VR projects: Iron Man VR, Deracine
With the introduction of PS Extra and such, Sony wants and needs AA content.

Dreams
Nioh
Babylon

aspiration is far from AA or even A projects.

Dreams is supposed to be the go to apps for making games software. It is not supposed to be small stuff. And considering how Media Molecule got such long time to develop that software shows that it is in no way small stuff.
Nioh is low AAA for Koei at least. The Gfx is great, the genre they choose is Souls which is big seller as well. Not comparable to the many small stuff SE did before.
Babylon is literally GaaS game. By Platinum games. Again not AA projects.

I thought Concrete Genie is also indie project that Sony pushed?

Nier Automata and Valkyrie Elysium is just marketing deals/time exclusives no? I doubt it is anything more than that.

Considering how much Sony has make points on wanting more bigger games/projects. I don't see how many of smaller projects from SE like.

Bravely Default 2
Triangle Strategy
Live A Live
Dungeon Encounter
Act Raiser
Harvestella
Chocobo Mystery Dungeon
Centennial Case
Voice of Cards
Chrono Cross
SaGa
Mana
Neo TWEWY
Various Day Life

and many that i missed.

All are title that if they sold 1m+ is already huge success for the team and projects. Some even don't need to hit 1m considering how low the game budget is(Talking about u, Dungeon Encounter and many SaGa game)

If SIE take hold of SE, many of those smaller project is guaranteed to be folded.

Sony shutting down multi million selling games like Octopath with drastically lower time, money, and resources put into them than AAA games is unlikely imo, especially since those skill sets don't translate to AAA FF/KH production, so what else are you going to do with those teams.

Sony shut down Jp Studio because they wanted to force the dev inside the company to move from A/AA smaller projects into AAA projects.
When the devs said no and they disagree with SIE direction there. SIE had no qualm shutting down their oldest studio.

I don't see why SIE if they bought SE can't do literally the same stuff they had done before there?

Also, Octopath should not be use as base there. As SE had many other projects that is still successful despite not hitting Octopath total sales there.
 

fiendcode

Member
Can you post Japan Studios sales compared to Octopath, Bravely Default II, and Triangle Strategy, and also try to do a rough estimate of the team size and development length of those games?
If Japan Studio had put out Switch games that Nintendo heavily promoted and published overseas, they might have some more million and multimillion sellers too. Publisher backing, overseas in particular, was kind of a sticking point for them the past decade. And now I'm kinda wishing Aniplex had absorbed all of Japan Studio (and their IP) and not just Forwardworks so we could see stuff like Gravity Rush, Mingol, Parappa, Wild Arms, Bloodborne, etc, get the Demon Slayer treatment.

The Asano games aren't really something you can compare for a very obvious reason though. What you should be looking at is more the AA stuff that Nintendo isn't financing like Mana, SaGa, Centennial Case, Actraiser, Voice of Cards, TWEWY, Star Ocean, Chocobo, etc. And frankly, if Sony did buy SE there's a decent chance Asano and his team would leave anyway for a Nintendo funded startup.
 

AruanaRiva

I will never doubt Harada-sama ever again!!!
Member
Can you post Japan Studios sales compared to Octopath, Bravely Default II, and Triangle Strategy, and also try to do a rough estimate of the team size and development length of those games?

Comparing Japan Studios game sales performance with those 3 title which literally survive and got huge marketing support by Nintendo which they put them as tentpole release is not going to be comparable.

Hell, even with huge Nintendo marketing support many of those game FW performance in Japan not anything special.

We can compare them with the last decent hit that Japan Studio got there.

Freedom Wars 187,890 FW and it hit 290k LTD.
Oreshika PSV 91k FW and it hit 132k LTD
Soul Sacrifice 105k FW and 190k LTD (Delta hit another 100k LTD)
Gravity Rush FW 40k FW and 100k LTD

Those are all except GR decent number for Japan. Some can even be called good number for brand new IP. But we all know their fate there.

Now we compare with Square Enix so called niche game.

LaL 71k FW
Triangle Strats 86k FW and 126k LTD(Atm)
NeoTWEWY 31k LTD
BD2 93k FW and 144k LTD
Saga Scarlet grace 128k LTD PS4, PSV and Switch
Octopath 109k FW and 199k LTD.

All of those lower number sales are not going to make SE goes like, damn those are some good numbers when some of those number is even below what Jp Studio did before. For those game to be successful on the west, Nintendo actually cultivate those kind of audience in their platform, put big Direct moment for those games, and actively give spotlight for them. So thinking that if Sony suddenly push all those titles, it is no guarantee that it will do as well as what Switch has bring to these games.

Also considering how much SIE has been focusing on GaaS stuff. Why do we still believe that they will suddenly give those small project different fate? At most, we will see the same case where they will try pull all those smaller teams into one big team and give them task to make a big AAA projects.
 
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