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GT7 MTX and the future of Playstation business

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Old sorta fan

Old sorta fan

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The MTX prices in GT7 just increased again: The Hagerty's price increases post-1.15 update - 8,337,900 Cr. pending 12 cars with no new engine/body available | GTPlanet

Playstation has shown that they are ok with hurting the gameplay in their flagship first party IP for MTX money. I think this will affect sales of the next Gran Turismo game because it changes the point of the game from getting the skills to virtually drive a crazy expensive to grinding/paying to virtually purchase an expensive car. The point was to virtually drive a car that most people will never even see with their own eyes in their lifetime. Now, GT7 is set up to remind you how expensive those cars are and that you'll never get to drive one virtually or in real life.

Will the next God of War game have MTX? Does this end anywhere?

More importantly, how does this affect Playstation business in the future?


I view this as a negative for Playstation business as this ruins one of the main reasons to buy a Playstation. Playstation can't sell MTX to whales if fewer people bother to pay the $500 to buy the hardware. Software still sells hardware and if you have fewer compelling software titles, you sell less hardware.
 
Sony is pivoting hard their focus on GaaS games and GT7 is one of them.

I wouldn't expect MTX in the next Uncharted or God of War but I am expect it in the next MP/Gaas games they are cooking.

GT7 showed that they are not yet experienced in that field (the Bungie buyout will help) so they'll need time before finding the right pricing for their MTX.

Expect a few misteps in the meantime, like what happened with GT7.
 
GT7 isn’t considered a GaaS game by Sony even if it has the structure of one, they mentioned MLB being the only GaaS title they have at the moment
 
Lelouch0612 said:
Sony is pivoting hard their focus on GaaS games and GT7 is one of them.

I wouldn't expect MTX in the next Uncharted or God of War but I am expect it in the next MP/Gaas games they are cooking.

GT7 showed that they are not yet experienced in that field (the Bungie buyout will help) so they'll need time before finding the right pricing for their MTX.

Expect a few misteps in the meantime, like what happened with GT7.
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Didn't UC4 already have lootboxes for the multi?
 
I had the same worry but you have to realize racing sims are very expensive to make if you are going for max realism. When you also take into account their waning popularity you begin to realize they are prime candidates for GaaS and you know how expensive that stuff is nowadays. Forza 7 has MXTs for days which fits well with the collecting component these games have. Their development is also usually ongoing long after release. They need MTXs just to keep the lights on sadly.

So in short, racing sims are very specific cases because they are a declining genre that demands more investment. As a fan I'm just happy MS and Sony still feel obligated to keep making them.
 
MysticGon said:
So in short, racing sims are very specific cases because they are a declining genre that demands more investment. As a fan I'm just happy MS and Sony still feel obligated to keep making them.
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Why are they in decline? Is the decline of the 20th century car culture? Or, is it that Sony/Microsoft hasn't done anything to expand the audience? I look at how Mario Kart sells and it's clear that people still like to play racing games in general.
 
Old sorta fan said:
Why are they in decline? Is the decline of the 20th century car culture? Or, is it that Sony/Microsoft hasn't done anything to expand the audience? I look at how Mario Kart sells and it's clear that people still like to play racing games in general.
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Mario Kart is a racing sim?
 
Old sorta fan said:
Why are they in decline? Is the decline of the 20th century car culture? Or, is it that Sony/Microsoft hasn't done anything to expand the audience? I look at how Mario Kart sells and it's clear that people still like to play racing games in general.
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I blame Fast and the Furious.

More people are interested in the CSR, Asphalt and Forza Horizon series now because at the end of the day people want to see beautifully designed machine ignore the laws of physics.
 
MysticGon said:
I blame Fast and the Furious.

More people are interested in the CSR, Asphalt and Forza Horizon series now because at the end of the day people want to see beautifully designed machine ignore the laws of physics.
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That said, I've seen absolutely nothing to indicate Forza Horizon 5 is outselling Gran Turismo 7.
 
Himura Kenshin said:
That said, I've seen absolutely nothing to indicate Forza Horizon 5 is outselling Gran Turismo 7.
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Game Pass complicates things but Horizon shits on Forza Motorsport AND Gran Turismo from a great height.

Gran Turismo Sport surpasses 14 million players

Gran Turismo 7's release is less than a month away, but GT Sport is proving popular as this latest player milestone shows.
racinggames.gg racinggames.gg

www.gameinformer.com

Halo Infinite Was The Series’ Biggest Launch Ever, Forza Horizon 5 Crosses 18 Million Players

Xbox had a really great 2021, huh?
www.gameinformer.com www.gameinformer.com

If GT7 sold even half the player count of FH5 they would be crowing about it being their biggest launch of all-time. GT7 won't even get anywhere near being the best selling Gran Turismo game much less hanging around the likes of God of War, Last of Us and Spider-Man.
 
Right, but he's referring to sales, not players. And nothing there indicates that FH5 is outselling GT7.
 
MysticGon said:
We live in the age of Chairman MAU, player counts and setting launch month records by revenue. It's harder than ever to just see the receipts.
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And we also live in the age of sales, and as I said, absolutely nothing you posted indicates Forza Horizon 5 is outselling Gran Turismo 7. Which by the way, also set a launch month record by revenue in NPD.



I find it curious after so confidently and matter of factly stating Horizon "shits on Gran Turismo from great heights in sales," you moved the goalpost to "MAU & player counts" after you got called out for not knowing a damn thing about what the game sold.
 
Forza already had over a million players before it even launched and was doing well on the weekly steam charts, indicating that it was selling well, even without Gamepass. Considering it was available on more platforms for longer I would be surprised if it wasn't fairly far ahead of GT7 sales at the moment. Launch aligned might be closer but Sony has yet to disclose any sort of sales figures for the game so we can only speculate on the comparison in terms of unit sales. But I do still think there is some value in the player count comparison though. People still pay for Gamepass and if Forza is getting people to get or stay subscribed that is generating value for Microsoft as well. It can also result in more microtransactions as well which also provides more revenue. This also applies to GT7 as microtransactions seem to be an important aspect of generating revenue for that game as well. So overall I don't think there is a simple answer as to which is doing better than the other simply due to how games earn revenue these days.
 
MysticGon said:
I had the same worry but you have to realize racing sims are very expensive to make if you are going for max realism. When you also take into account their waning popularity you begin to realize they are prime candidates for GaaS and you know how expensive that stuff is nowadays. Forza 7 has MXTs for days which fits well with the collecting component these games have. Their development is also usually ongoing long after release. They need MTXs just to keep the lights on sadly.

So in short, racing sims are very specific cases because they are a declining genre that demands more investment. As a fan I'm just happy MS and Sony still feel obligated to keep making them.
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I think that Forza 7 removed MTX and loot boxes completely years ago. Car packs were still available for purchase, though.
Himura Kenshin said:
And we also live in the age of sales, and as I said, absolutely nothing you posted indicates Forza Horizon 5 is outselling Gran Turismo 7. Which by the way, also set a launch month record by revenue in NPD.



I find it curious after so confidently and matter of factly stating Horizon "shits on Gran Turismo from great heights in sales," you moved the goalpost to "MAU & player counts" after you got called out for not knowing a damn thing about what the game sold.
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Forza Horizon 5 had 1.5 million players a week before launch, meaning at least 1.5 million people bought the most expensive edition (100 bucks). It was likely much more than that since I imagine not everyone who bought that edition played that week.

So I wouldn't be too sure about GT7 outselling FH5, FH5 sold a ton on Steam additionally. And GT7 is not on Steam.

GT7's sales are also being inflated by console bundles, and it's the same with HFW.
 
Games as a Service -> Sony
wants to be "Netflix of Gaming" -> Microsoft
DLC to push online subscriptions -> Nintendo

Simply making and selling complete games -> nobody
 
Kowalski said:
The bundles for both games is at a higher price.
You don't get them for free with the console, but with an addition $50-70 dollars
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If we talk about retailer bundles you cant buy a PS5 console nowadays outside of Amazon without buying one of these bundles so it does inflate GT7 sales numbers even if for Sony it doesnt matter it’s still a sale at full price
 
Kowalski said:
The bundles for both games is at a higher price.
You don't get them for free with the console, but with an addition $50-70 dollars
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I know, but that's still many people buying a game only because they are forced to. The point is, the demand for GT7 and HFW is artificially high because of these bundles. That's not the case for Forza Horizon 5.
 
adriandlte said:
I think that Forza 7 removed MTX and loot boxes completely years ago. Car packs were still available for purchase, though.

Forza Horizon 5 had 1.5 million players a week before launch, meaning at least 1.5 million people bought the most expensive edition (100 bucks). It was likely much more than that since I imagine not everyone who bought that edition played that week.

So I wouldn't be too sure about GT7 outselling FH5, FH5 sold a ton on Steam additionally. And GT7 is not on Steam.

GT7's sales are also being inflated by console bundles, and it's the same with HFW.
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Why are you coming at me talking about "I wouldn't be too sure about GT7 outselling FH5" when I never said it did. Why don't you come at the guy who literally said Horizon "shits on Gran Turismo from great heights in sales" but has no sales to back that up? Seems to me you're picking and a choosing a very peculiar side of this argument to jump in on while at the same time adding nothing to it.

adriandlte said:
I know, but that's still many people buying a game only because they are forced to. The point is, the demand for GT7 and HFW is artificially high because of these bundles. That's not the case for Forza Horizon 5.
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Considering Forza's sales shits on Gran Turismo's from great heights I suppose you can show me where it outsold GT7 regardless of its bundles, right?
 
Himura Kenshin said:
Why are you coming at me talking about "I wouldn't be too sure about GT7 outselling FH5" when I never said it did. Why don't you come at the guy who literally said Horizon "shits on Gran Turismo from great heights in sales" but has no sales to back that up?
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Because I found his comment to be dumb and I didn't want to reply to it.

On the other hand, I did want to add some numerical data I found relevant to your point about there being no evidence that FH5 sold better than GT7. I apologize for my terrible crimes.
Considering Forza's sales shits on Gran Turismo's from great heights I suppose you can show me where it outsold GT7 regardless of its bundles, right?
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Where did I say that FH5's sales shit on GT7's? Nice straw man fallacy, I guess.
 
MysticGon said:
Game Pass complicates things but Horizon shits on Forza Motorsport AND Gran Turismo from a great height.
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GT has always been the bigger franchise, its orders of magnitude larger than FM and even the arcade version FH I don't think has met GT heights.

GT5 sold near 15M, GTS is likely 10M+ and GT7 just outdid GTS in launch metrics. People tend to forget that GT is huge seller in EU and RoTW areas and a long seller.

adriandlte said:
GT7's sales are also being inflated by console bundles, and it's the same with HFW.
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Not only are console bundles higher priced, meaning the game is priced as an extra cost but there is no significant data to suggest that GT7 and HFW aren't also selling due to their legs from being desired PS5 exclusives.

In fact, the only bit of data I've found seems to be in FY19, where software in bundles, DL only and PSVR titles accounted for around 10% of total software sales. So claiming these games are selling well only due to bundles is unfounded.
 
adriandlte said:
Fortunately for me, I didn't say that.

You also know perfectly well that the PS5 bundle situation is wildly different from PS4 bundles in 2019, but you don't care, so I won't even bother with you.
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You still made a claim that is unfounded, and how can anyone determine the percentage of PS5 bundles being sold with or without GT7/HFW without any data?
 
adriandlte said:
Because I found his comment to be dumb and I didn't want to reply to it.
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To be fair he quoted me when he gave that dumb comment otherwise I wouldn't have replied either.

adriandlte said:
On the other hand, I did want to add some numerical data I found relevant to your point about there being no evidence that FH5 sold better than GT7. I apologize for my terrible crimes.
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Good on you, but the numerical data you provided - despite your valiant efforts - still offered no evidence Forza Horizon 5 outsold GT7.

adriandlte said:
Where did I say that FH5's sales shit on GT7's? Nice straw man fallacy, I guess.
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You didn't, but you jumped into the middle of a discussion between me and a guy who did to tell me that you "wouldn't be too sure about GT7 outselling FH5" when I never said that either. I can't let you be the only guy throwing around BS straw men fallacies now can I?
 
FH5 passed 10m players week one. Gamepass has really changed the metrics on this, the game will be looking at a player base in the tens of millions over it's lifecycle.

It's competition isn't GT anymore in terms of reach, it's Mario Kart.
 
fiendcode said:
FH5 passed 10m players week one. Gamepass has really changed the metrics on this, the game will be looking at a player base in the tens of millions over it's lifecycle.

It's competition isn't GT anymore in terms of reach, it's Mario Kart.
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MK and GT7 are sold games.

FH is free on GP. Its not a valid comparison at all and its pretty obvious why. Until MK is free on NSO or GT is free on PS+, it will remain an invalid comparison.
 
enpleinjour said:
You still made a claim that is unfounded.
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How exactly is saying that a game's sales are inflated because of bundles unfounded?

How can anyone determine the percentage of PS5 bundles being sold with or without GT7/HFW without any data?
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I don't know, which is why I haven't done it.

Himura Kenshin said:
To be fair he quoted me when he gave that dumb comment otherwise I wouldn't have replied either.



Good on you, but the numerical data you provided - despite your valiant efforts - still offered no evidence Forza Horizon 5 outsold GT7.



You didn't, but you jumped into the middle of a discussion between me and a guy who did to tell me that you "wouldn't be too sure about GT7 outselling FH5" when I never said that either. I can't let you be the only guy throwing around BS straw men fallacies now can I?
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I said that while you might think there is no evidence to claim FH5 has sold more copies than GT7 - which I disagree with and I already explained why - , I wouldn't be too sure about the reverse being correct either just because of the supposed lack of evidence supporting the former. I didn't say you specifically thought that. I don't think you think that at all, actually.

On the other hand, saying Considering Forza's sales shits on Gran Turismo's from great heights I suppose you can show me where it outsold GT7 regardless of its bundles, right? actually is a fallacy. And an especially stupid one, because you assumed I agreed with the other guy about FH5 "shitting from great heights" on GT7 just because I uh... didn't quote his post.

Well that's cool, now you can accuse me of agreeing with all comments I don't reply to on the forum. What a fantastic idea.
 
enpleinjour said:
MK and GT7 are sold games.

FH is free on GP. Its not a valid comparison at all and its pretty obvious why. Until MK is free on NSO or GT is free on PS+, it will remain an invalid comparison.
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Sure, that's why I said GP has changed the metric. Even though FH5 is built like a premium game, it functionally operates more like a service title since it's a GP driver. It's leapfrogged where it would've been in terms of players otherwise, now it sits in the category of stuff like Asphalt or Mario Kart.
 
Don't worry. I haven't forgotten about it you all. It'll just have to wait until after work and dusting off some old-fashion NPD numbers.
 
I'm not really sure what sales numbers for GT7 vs FH5 vs any other racing game are really relevant to GT7 MTX and how Sony will continue to implement them going forward. Thread feels like it really lost the plot.
 
Blue Monty said:
GT7 isn’t considered a GaaS game by Sony even if it has the structure of one, they mentioned MLB being the only GaaS title they have at the moment
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I already said but this is why I think at least the moment we can’t judge how Sony GaaS games will end up being using GT7 as a reference due to them not considering it one, imo they have used GT7 as a test mule to see how they can manage a GaaS title but without the risk of it thanks to GT branding and being a full price release. According to them MLB is their only GaaS title so it’s better to look at it to make projections
 
adriandlte said:
I said that while you might think there is no evidence to claim FH5 has sold more copies than GT7 - which I disagree with and I already explained why - , I wouldn't be too sure about the reverse being correct either just because of the supposed lack of evidence supporting the former. I didn't say you specifically thought that. I don't think you think that at all, actually.

On the other hand, saying Considering Forza's sales shits on Gran Turismo's from great heights I suppose you can show me where it outsold GT7 regardless of its bundles, right? actually is a fallacy. And an especially stupid one, because you assumed I agreed with the other guy about FH5 "shitting from great heights" on GT7 just because I uh... didn't quote his post.

Well that's cool, now you can accuse me of agreeing with all comments I don't reply to on the forum. What a fantastic idea.
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I know exactly what you said. You said "So I wouldn't be too sure about GT7 outselling FH5." Who the hell said it did? I didn't. Maybe you should have quoted the guy who said that so you could tell that person you're "not too sure about it." Oh wait I know who said it, it was the straw man. Pot, meet kettle.

And no, none of your numerical data has provided any evidence of Forza Horizon 5 outselling Gran Turismo 7.
 
Himura Kenshin said:
I know exactly what you said. You said "So I wouldn't be too sure about GT7 outselling FH5." Who the hell said it did? I didn't. Maybe you should have quoted the guy who said that so you could tell that person you're "not too sure about it." Oh wait I know who said it, it was the straw man. Pot, meet kettle.
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I just told you I know you didn't say that. I explained why I said that and you understood it perfectly. If you want to keep manipulating it then good for you.

---

On topic: People are quite happy with GT7's economy at the moment, as far as I understand. The ability to sell cars is coming in the future too. However, the idea of linking car prices to real life inflation was most likely taken in order to make stuff more expensive. Like I said last time though, I am confident the game will improve, just like GTS.
 
adriandlte said:
How exactly is saying that a game's sales are inflated because of bundles unfounded?
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That's not the only thing you claimed though. You mentioned "its artificially high", which is unfounded unless you can tell the ratio of bundled vs unbundled sales. Even more so whats the timeframe. These games launched weeks ago, so a LTD would be more meaningful than looking at a week down the line. Both GT7 and HFW had strong openings.

A lot of games get bundled. From the data we have, bundled sales are an absolute minority compared to software sales, which makes sense as software numbers are a magnitude larger than hardware sales. Especially, in the long run.

fiendcode said:
Sure, that's why I said GP has changed the metric. Even though FH5 is built like a premium game, it functionally operates more like a service title since it's a GP driver. It's leapfrogged where it would've been in terms of players otherwise, now it sits in the category of stuff like Asphalt or Mario Kart.
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Well any game can leapfrog player counts if its given away as free on one of these services. The metric of a game which is accessed like this is concurrent users, growth in playercounts or revenue. None of which is really disclosed by MS.
 
enpleinjour said:
That's not the only thing you claimed though. You mentioned "its artificially high", which is unfounded unless you can tell the ratio of bundled vs unbundled sales. Even more so whats the timeframe. These games launched weeks ago, so a LTD would be more meaningful than looking at a week down the line. Both GT7 and HFW had strong openings.

A lot of games get bundled. From the data we have, bundled sales are an absolute minority compared to software sales, which makes sense as software numbers are a magnitude larger than hardware sales. Especially, in the long run.
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A game that's being bundled shows higher demand than normal. A game being bundled is inevitably going to sell at least 1 copy to a user that would not have bought it as a separate product. That's why bundles exist. That's the point of bundles: selling products to people that might not be very interested in them. By artificially high I mean higher than without bundles.
 
Why is GT7 being used as an example for future Sony GAAS games rather than The Show or even GoT:Legends? This is a rhetorical question btw, I already know the answer but worth keeping in mind for other posters.

As an aside, I'd be gobsmacked if Sony is dictating to PD as to how to deliver the pricing of their MTX. Kaz is almost certainly digging his own hole.
 
There's an enormous difference in business models between Sony's 1st party studios which leads me to believe they each get alot of freedom in how they operate.

ND and Polyphony are probably the worst, ND had MTX in their MP modes for like a decade and they're pretty egregious. Meanwhile you have games like God of War, Demons Souls, Returnal, Ratchet and Clank, Horizon Forbidden West, etc that either ship a complete game or put out free content with no post game monetization.

It's very possible that we'll never be able to identify a "Sony GaaS strategy" in terms of how the games are monetized because each studio will handle them so differently.
 
ArkhamFantasy said:
There's an enormous difference in business models between Sony's 1st party studios which leads me to believe they each get alot of freedom in how they operate.

ND and Polyphony are probably the worst, ND had MTX in their MP modes for like a decade and they're pretty egregious. Meanwhile you have games like God of War, Demons Souls, Returnal, Ratchet and Clank, Horizon Forbidden West, etc that either ship a complete game or put out free content with no post game monetization.

It's very possible that we'll never be able to identify a "Sony GaaS strategy" in terms of how the games are monetized because each studio will handle them so differently.
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Correct. People are using this PD thing as a stick to beat Playstation with imo.
 
MysticGon said:
I would very like to address the charge against be in this thread but I'll open up another one if it's absolutely necessary.
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I think it’s ok to talk about it here. Just tie in how the MTX do/do not affect the sales of each and if they are substitutes for each other. I’m ok with it as I could learn something new.
 
Turenne said:
Why is GT7 being used as an example for future Sony GAAS games rather than The Show or even GoT:Legends? This is a rhetorical question btw, I already know the answer but worth keeping in mind for other posters.

As an aside, I'd be gobsmacked if Sony is dictating to PD as to how to deliver the pricing of their MTX. Kaz is almost certainly digging his own hole.
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I didn’t mean to use it as the lone example of PlayStation first party MTX. It is recent news so I went with it. Do you think it’ll cause the IP’s to decline? I tend to view MTX as unsustainable but I am open to learning new things.
 
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